SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt

While I appreciate the enthusiaism, please try to avoid bringing down other users and going off-topic

The Found wrote:

Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt

funny part is that nobody knows if u agree or disagree with it

Cheth ragdolling

Good post Cheth

Cheth obliterating.

I disagree with some points but great post.

Thanks everyone!

Nice Nice. I do have to appreciate HP using Cade. Reborn Krayt isn't looking to good from Ceth's post.

Interesting

POWER

Sorta sounds like Exar Kun>Prime Krayt now.

The "Cheth ragdolling" comments, accurate or not, and joking or not, are the height of cringe.

OT-Good post Cheth.

Really good post @Nute_Chethray

REBUTTAL

@Nute_Chethray A parting gift to you, before I vanish until the summer.

I. Karness Muur vs Ajunta Pall

A) Growth

To kick off this section of my post, I want to quote what I said last post and clarify my argument, because it seems like you genuinely don’t understand what I was saying. This is what I said (relevant parts highlighted and underlined):

I wrote:A potential point of contention with the above is that Karness Muur is below Ajunta Pall - as evidenced by Pall being the Dark Lord of the Sith when The Exiles fled to Korriban, and not Muur. However, that was thousands of years before Dark Times, and thus there’s no reason to use it to bind Muur below Pall as of this specific time period, due to the potential for Muurian mega growth in the interim. After all, the available evidence suggests Muur would absolutely crush Pall, and I see no reason to doubt it or the possibility that Muur grew. Furthermore, it’s stated that Muur ”grows more dangerous as the centuries pass”, potentially alluding to power growth on his part, though, admittedly the word ”dangerous” could refer to Muur’s increasing activity. Nevertheless, the plausible explanation remains, and, if you wish to dispute the idea that Muur grew in power, you must explain why, as the evidence favours my case.

And this is what you think I said:

Saying evidence favours your case is doubtful when the only thing you’re basing it on is claiming that “dangerous” refers to Muur’s personal power.

Cheth, when I say ”the available evidence suggests Muur would absolutely crush Pall” (red) what do you think I’m referring to? A vague ”dangerous” quote, which I haven’t even mentioned yet (it’s literally first brought up in the subsequent sentence), admit in that same paragraph isn’t concrete (blue), and doesn’t necessitate that Muur would ”crush Pall” even with the most generous interpretation that it’s talking about power. And when I continually refer to ”possibility” // “plausible explanation” // ”potential” (underlined) of growth, do you think I’m acting like I have some iron clad quote substantiating that Muur grew a shit ton?

I obviously don’t think Muur’s growth is substantiated in the lore, nor do I think that the ”dangerous” quote is an automatic GG - it’s supplementary evidence, so your quibbling over it is pointless. The actual ”evidence” I was referring to was the comparison to Sidious shown in the prior section of my post. Given the ideas that Muur is Sidious tier and Muur is Pall tier are mutually exclusive, we’re forced to rationalise them somehow, and I posited growth as a possible explanation, as there’s nothing rejecting the idea that Muur grew. Or, to summarise this whole paragraph: the proof that Muur grew is the contrast in his powers during the Dark Times, and his powers during The Old Republic. Making you constantly asking for proof as your ”rebuttal”:

You have to prove such growth.

[...]

Pall has confirmed superiority and unproven growth, so on the contrary.

[...]

I have to explain why there’s no cause for growth, you have to explain why there is, that's just how debates work. Saying evidence favours your case is doubtful when the only thing you’re basing it on is claiming that “dangerous” refers to Muur’s personal power.

...a big #coolstorybro. What you actually need to do to reject my case is prove that the probability Vader is wrong in his assessment of Sidious and Muur’s relative powers is greater than the probability that Muur grew. You didn’t even touch on the former topic, but, in fairness, I didn’t really provide any reasons why it is likely Vader is right last post, and will do so here. In order for Vader to be wrong, he’d have to have:

(1) ...underestimated Sidious’s power, OR
(2) ...overestimated Muur’s power.

In the case of (1), Vader has experienced Sidious fighting Mace Windu first hand, and knows he defeated Yoda - who’s power level Vader is aware of. It doesn’t seem likely he’d have an inaccurate reading, and it’s not as if his perception is being skewed by bias due to him living in some fantasy land: he rejects the idea of using Muur's power to take down Sidious in the end.

In the case of (2), it isn’t difficult to sense the talisman’s energies as it’s an inanimate object, and Vader literally notes he can feel the power radiating from it - basing his conclusion that he can defeat Sidious off of that.

Overall, it’s extremely unlikely Vader is wrong.

However, while you didn’t address Vader’s perception of Muur and Sidious’s power, you did try and prove it’s implausible Muur grew:

But you also have to prove when Muur had opportunity to grow. Throughout Vector he spent most of the time in stasis or in completely desolated locations. Morne also was for the most part in control of her body, so he couldn’t have conducted alchemy or gained new knowledge

Further you have to show how he could have grown. Usually in Star Wars power is gained through experiences (for example clone wars for PT jedi), or increased knowledge (Dark Holocron for Exar Kun), through experiments (cybernetical/alchemical enhancement), amulets,  or through things such as life drain. Muur had none of these, nor any other way to grow. He doesn’t even have a body with midichlorians with potential he can expand upon.

But the issue with your argument here is your concession that the means you provide for growth are only the ”usual” way in which a character’s powers increase - leaving the door open to other methods. Natural growth not resulting from any new experience, knowledge, etc, can occur, and while it’s not significant in the course of like a year, Muur spent 1000 thousand years stewing in a talisman. Even a miniscule increase in a year could result in a massive boon overall.

When told how long they were trapped, Muur even noted that the time was “wasted”, not something he’d say if he experienced significant power growth in the meantime.

Muur literally states why the time was ”wasted” in that very scan you posted: ”What use is it to live through millenia if one is trapped inside a box?” He was trapped for 1000 thousand years: unable to cause chaos, amass power over others, gain new knowledge, etc. I wouldn’t consider that a terribly productive time, even if he did increase in power, either. Context is key.

To summarise this section:

(1) The proof of Muur’s growth is not the ”dangerous” quote, but, rather, his comparability to Sidious.
(2) It’s unlikely Vader is wrong in his assessment of Sidious’s or the talisman's power.
(3) Muur growing massively more powerful is entirely possible, given that he had 1000 years to do so.

B) The Talisman

This part of your post concerning this iteration of Muur being vastly weaker than even his Spirit self is smaller, and not as important as the above, but I feel it’s relevant to cover anyway. To preface, the writers of Legacy hold Krayt with Sidious, yet your argument would have us believe a mere imprint of Muur’s power is being written as comparable to the most powerful Sith of all time.

Legacy Writers wrote:Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi Masters; I submit it doesn't put the Imperial Knights in a bad light to suggest Krayt is in that class.

Do you see how utterly dishonest this claim is? Of course, this isn’t a direct rebuttal, but I think it’s well worth considering while I go through the following points:

Lastly, it's important to note that Muur’s power is not that of his spirit. It's the talisman. As shown by Morne being able to draw on the talisman’s power even when Muur is actively opposing her.

The talisman contains Muur’s spirit, as I’ll cover below.

It's not even Muur’s spirit in the typical sense, just his mind and essence.

...spirits are essence??? Why do you think the technique of a spirit travelling from one body to another is called essence transfer? Literally look at the way sourcebooks describe the process: “If you transfer your essence to another body...” (Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook) Sounds very similar to what’s happening with Muur, only with the spirit entering a host body rather than being tied to an artifact.

This is outright compared to a holocron, the only difference being that he entered a talisman.

...the quote doesn’t say that? It’s not the fact that it’s a talisman that’s the difference, it’s that it’s the talisman - the one which contains his ”very mind and will” (i.e. it’s different because it’s a special talisman which houses his spirit).

Essences in holocrons are far weaker than regular spirits, more an imprint than their actual being, usually unable to affect the living world at all.

So, when the scans you posted say Muur’s talisman holds his ”essence” and ”very mind and will” they really mean it just has an ”echo” // ”imprint” of his spirit? Those don’t sound like the same thing to me.

II. Karness Muur vs Cade Skywalker

A) Karness Muur vs Darth Krayt

Explain this sentence. Specifically the “very least” part. Which part of the fight shows Krayt’s superiority to Muur?

I didn’t claim Krayt has superiority, nor do I want to get into a discussion about that, because we would be quibbling over small differences. My argument dealt with the lower limits (i.e. "at least") precisely due to such - I only want to illustrate that Krayt has comparability, but I'm not ruling out the possibility of him being better. As for my proof, I substantiated it last post: Krayt mitigating Muur’s big Lightning Blast, despite the circumstances against him, shows his closeness.

If your argument is that Legacy characters are unable to prevent force drain, its not in your favour.

That is not my argument: it was never stated nor implied anywhere within my post.

At most you mentioned two circumstances, one of which is an ability Pall has access to and isn’t circumstantial, the other is fair (being stabbed). So to correct that sentence: “despite being stabbed/despite this circumstance”.

My point isn’t that some of these circumstances aren’t things that apply in neutral conditions: it’s that they amp Muur’s Lightning and hinder Krayt, making Krayt’s feat of mitigating the Lightning more indicative of comparability. My arguments weren’t an attempted justification for the feat - they were meant to show Krayt’s closeness to Muur.

First (and most importantly), Muur’s host actively tried to resist and block him out. Said host (Morne) was noted to be capable of holding off Krayt single handedly for a time. She even manages to hold off the combined lightning of Krayt and Maladi before using the talisman to help her. Morne is specifically inferior to the talisman.

What’s your proof she’s inferior to the talisman?

There is nothing indicating Muur was charging up an attack. He fired lightning the moment Azlyn stabbed Krayt, and just kept on firing.

He was charging up an attack before the stab. What do you think was happening to the energy he was draining from Krayt, and why did he not instantly subdue everyone like he supposedly could as soon as he combined his power with Morne’s but wait several moments instead? Or do you seriously think that the massive Lightning storm which incapacitated around half a dozen combatants was generated in a second?

We also do not see Krayt blocking Muur’s lightning beforehand, it goes right from Krayt firing lightning and Muur absorbing it to Muur firing as Azlyn stabbed him. It was the first offensive attack by Muur.

I didn’t claim otherwise.

It should also be noted that Muur’s attack didn’t just hit Krayt. The main focus of it was on him, but it was also a huge area of effect blast, which knocked over every sith, jedi and imperial knight in the area, The sith being so injured they had to be put into bacta tanks.

The only people we see hit by the blast are Maladi, Alzyn, Shado and an Imperial Knight (I forget the Knight’s name) - there’s no reason to assume it knocked over everyone. Stryfe is probably in a bacta tank because of the explosion he was hit by, and Talon because of her fight with Cade.

Positioning in the comic also shows another fact; Maladi was still next to Krayt, which means she was still helping in the 2v1. Which makes sense since we saw her nowhere after joining him. So even at the final stages Muur still was at a disadvantage.

Maladi is fodder to either, so this doesn’t affect the feat much.

What makes this even more clearly in Muur’s favour is the fact that he has OOU sources supporting his superiority to Krayt.

Since when does ”outshone” mean ”superior to”? Muur would obviously shine most brightly out of the 3 given that he won, but this doesn’t tell us anything about his relationship to Cade and Krayt, given the context behind said victory.

I also want to bring out one final point for Muur’s superiority, one which is overlooked. Muur outright states that he has killed more powerful sith than Krayt before.

...but I thought Muur was vastly weaker here than he was while living? Why is he rambling about feats he doesn’t scale to?

This is usually looked at as exaggeration, but there is no cause to. Muur has on multiple occasions been able to gauge people’s power (even potential power) with accuracy, even ones in which few others do (for example, Vader never sensed that Leia was a force sensitive despite meeting her repeatedly).

The fact that Muur has been accurate in the past doesn’t necessarily mean he is here. He has no way to concretely know Krayt’s power given that he’s never experienced its full potency - they’d only clashed blades once by the time Muur made this statement. Moreover, his arrogance may cause him to exaggerate his past feats: we have no concrete way of knowing how impressive this Sith truly is, whether Muur’s victory was even legitimate, etc.

The actual fight between the two tells us what Muur’s power level relative to Krayt really is - as I explained last post - and he’s certainly not vastly beyond him.

B) Darth Wyyrlok vs Darth Krayt

When Krayt returns Reborn, he duels Wyyrlok. Said duel lasted for multiple pages, in which they contested first through dueling, then the force, dueling, and then the force again.

Your order is wrong. They start off fighting with the Force, then they duel, and then they go back to using the Force (or, rather, Wyyrlok attempts to telepathically subdue Krayt). There aren’t multiple duelling segments.

I definitely agree that Reborn Krayt is superior, after all even Vong Krayt is. However if Wyyrlok can give Reborn Krayt a lengthy fight, while still being inferior to vong Krayt, the gap between the two iterations of Krayt can’t be that big.

We clearly have different definitions of lengthy. The fight, prior to Wyyrlok’s usage of telepathy, can be summarised as follows:

-Wyyrlok throws Lightning at Krayt
-Krayt blocks it and pushes it onto the pillars which break
-Wyyrlok throws the debris of the broken pillar at Krayt
-Krayt catches the debris and throws it back at Wyyrlok
-Wyyrlok deflects the debris with a Force Barrier
-Krayt jumps into CQC
-Wyyrlok blocks two swings from Krayt and dodges a third

...that all could have happened in less than 15 seconds. The most you can gather is that Wyyrlok can’t be blitzed or ragdolled, but nothing necessitates any kind of closeness, and the writers for Legacy reject such a notion given that they stated Krayt won ”easily”:

Legacy Writers wrote:I've hear some readers comment that they thought Wyyrlok fell too easily to Krayt, but, seriously, would the outcome ever be in doubt? Especially with Krayt all new and invigorated after his "rebirth"?

The only part of the struggle that’s extensive is after Wyyrlok telepathically attacks Krayt, but they weren’t even really fighting then: Krayt was feigning weakness and Wyyrlok was monologuing.

Nothing here caps Krayt’s growth.

C) Cade Skywalker and Karness Muur vs Darth Talon

While the dialogue is shorter and the fight possibly as well, they were not bladelocked, since in between the panels they went from facing each other to Cade being behind her, indicating they at least dueled for a short amount of time.

They were bladelocked initially, as you can see in the scan I provided last post. The fact that Talon disengaged from the lock and shifted her position afterwards doesn’t contradict this, and given that said shift could have happened in the span of a second, there’s no proof that they duelled for any significant length of time.

Also, what do you mean the fight is only ”possibly” shorter? It’s way less pages, there’s way less dialogue, etc, and Talon takes the performance as proof of Cade’s growth.

This is not really accurate. She fired a tk blast at the floor and he just avoided it. She didn’t attempt to directly hit him.

I’m not sure why you’re quibbling over a small detail which does nothing to back up your argument. Regardless, ”resists” - which is the wording I assume you’re contesting - just means that Cade prevented himself from being affected by the TK, and that is true under what you just described: he was unaffected due to his dodge.

And even after being hit by said attack, she still manages to run away and warn Krayt.

...she was initially knocked out by the attack. She only manages to run away when Wolf Sazen dies, and Cade’s attention is on him rather than her.

To compare, we’ll go back to Vector. Muur fires a lightning blast directly at Krayt. However a smaller part of it spreads out and hits everyone in the area. One of said people was Talon, and she, like everyone else, was one-shotted.

Refer to my earlier rebuttal where I discussed the Vector fight. The scan never depicts Talon being hit by the blast, and she was already subdued earlier by Cade - which is the more likely reason she was in a bacta tank.

However unlike Cade’s attack in which she stood up and ran away after, Muur’s incapitated her to a point where she had to be put in a bacta tank for days to recover. So while both are superior to Talon, unfocused energies diverting off a blast from Muur did far more damage to Talon than a direct force push by Cade.

Even if we’re generous and accept your premise that it was Muur who one-shotted Talon, despite her already being knocked out earlier by Cade, there are a few issues with this comparison:

(1) There’s no basis for her being in a bacta tank for ”days” - I don’t recall anything of that nature being implied, anyway - she could have only been in one for an hour, for all we know.

(2) There’s no reason to presume this means Muur is more powerful given that Lightning is inherently more damaging than telekinesis.

III. XoXaan vs Darth Krayt

First, as you said, XoXaan was capable of greatly increasing Krayt’s power. Then you said that Krayt again grew greatly from the Embrace of pain. Both is fair. However you skipped one step between that and him becoming Dark Lord of the sith.

Despite Hett already being at a level above most of the steps on your massive scaling chain, and having grown significantly past that level, he again apprenticed himself to XoXaan. At this point he's already Darth Krayt.

...what? Read the quote you’re posting:

Legacy: Claws of the Dragon wrote:Darth Krayt was born and returned to Korriban -- first as an apprentice to XoXaan, ready to embrace the way of the Sith -- then as a master prepared to create a new Sith Order.

The segment which says he was an apprentice to XoXaan is separated from the rest of the text/Krayt’s return to Korriban by parenthesis, so it has nothing to do with that - it’s referencing his initial tutelage under her before he was captured by the Vong, to show how far he’s come. Or, do you think Krayt, despite being labelled a Darth in that very same scan, hasn’t yet ”embraced the way of the Sith”?

Why is this significant? Because sith only become the apprentice of superior sith lords. And note that this doesn’t suggest that anyone who uses a holocron has to be their inferior, you can study a holocron without its guardian being your superior. However it's the specific word “apprentice” which suggests that XoXaan was a true master, not just a source of information.

XoXaan was only Hett’s master because he lacked knowledge of the Dark Side - he was only a Jedi when he apprenticed himself to her, as clarified above - and needed someone to teach him, not due to lacking power on his part.

Following this chain, it's impossible for Pall to be at the bottom of it. And note that this is one of your shortest chains. The longer they are, the more impossible it gets.

Addressed above; Krayt is not below XoXaan. But, as a second rebuttal, you really should have looked at the chain you're contesting in greater detail - specifically, you should have analysed the proof provided for each link - before making this argument:

I wrote:A’Sharad Hett << Obi-Wan Kenobi => TCW Darth Maul >> TPM Maul > Exar Kun.

Where do you suppose the flaw is here? Some of my scaling chains are based on character opinions, but this is all based on direct statements of superiority and combat feats. Look at the basis for every link in that chain, and you’ll see a character opinion - Krayt supposedly viewing Xoxxan as stronger than him - will collapse before all of them.

IV. Conclusion

You did nothing to contest most of my scaling, and grossly misinterpreted my argument for Muur’s growth. Moreover, you continually failed to provide any link between Muur and Prime Cade, and your use of XoXaan scaling was half-hearted at best.

Cade slaughters.

did u tag me by any chance? it tells me that u did, but I dont see it...

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:did u tag me by any chance? it tells me that u did, but I dont see it...

No, I didn't.

AA3 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:did u tag me by any chance? it tells me that u did, but I dont see it...

No, I didn't.

k
this human be a young justice fan. i watched the fuck outta that

Good post, shorter than expected which is refreshing 

Muur vs Ajunta 

The Center of Conflict

 
Somehow you completely forgot to counter or even acknowledge the main part of my argument, or maybe you just didn’t understand it. So I’ll show it in a more clear manner:
Unless you can prove Muur growing, your entire scaling chain is contradicted by his showings in Legacy. These showings will take precedence over your chain, as shown by the rules of the thread:

Rules wrote wrote:--Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.

And note that the burden of proof lies on you, since you’re the one arguing that Muur did grow, without anything suggesting he has.
 

“Growth”

 
So, with this in mind, lets look at your arguments for Muur growing:

HP wrote wrote:"Cheth, when I say ”the available evidence suggests Muur would absolutely crush Pall” (red) what do you think I’m referring to? A vague ”dangerous” quote, which I haven’t even mentioned yet (it’s literally first brought up in the subsequent sentence), admit in that same paragraph isn’t concrete (blue), and doesn’t necessitate that Muur would ”crush Pall” even with the most generous interpretation that it’s talking about power. And when I continually refer to ”possibility” // “plausible explanation” // ”potential” (underlined) of growth, do you think I’m acting like I have some iron clad quote substantiating that Muur grew a shit ton?"

The issue is that the only evidence you could possibly have for Muur growing is this quote, which is why its “the only thing you’re basing it on”. I had already addressed your chain with my case itself, that being that you have to prove Muur has grown, otherwise its contradicted. Also all of your counter is severely misreading my post, as I didn’t quote “the available evidence suggests…”, but “evidence favours your case”, which is a line written at the end of your paragraph, after you mentioned the statement. All you’re really doing is complaining that I addressed a statement you had mentioned, and even if you admit to it being a shifty quote, you presented it, so I had to respond to it, since you used it as proof. If you think its irrelevant, and that I shouldn’t address it, then don’t bring it up in the first place.


Supplementary evidence is still evidence I have to address since it’s the only part of your argument that might circumvent mine. Now that you’ve admitted its irrelevant, and I’ve said that its irrelevant, and everyone can openly see that we agree on that fact, I can leave it to rest since its no longer a factor in the debate. But for my case I need to demonstrate this. Don’t know how you would think otherwise.

HP wrote wrote:I obviously don’t think Muur’s growth is substantiated in the lore

So you admit that there’s indeed nothing in actual SW lore that supports Muur growing.

HP wrote wrote:Given the ideas that Muur is Sidious tier and Muur is Pall tier are mutually exclusive

But Muur is one of the exiles inferior to Pall (per you admission), and Muur is in Sidious’s tier (per your admission). And nothing in SW lore supports Muur growing (per your admission). So therefore its not mutually exclusive, it’s a simple fact.

HP wrote wrote:the proof that Muur grew is the contrast in his powers during the Dark Times, and his powers during The Old Republic.

But where is the contrast? Has Muur gained some new ability he didn’t before? Has Muur’s ability to turn people into rakghouls improved? Can he do environmental feats he explicitly couldn’t before?


I can answer all these questions with one word: no.


The only thing you use to say that Muur has improved is his feats against Sidious and Krayt, which we have nothing showing or even saying he couldn’t do before. Unless you can prove his growth, then your scaling chains are contradicted by his showings.


You’re currently trying to use your scaling chains as proof that Muur must have grown, and then use you saying he has grown to prove your scaling chains are accurate.

HP wrote wrote:What you actually need to do to reject my case is prove that the probability Vader is wrong in his assessment of Sidious and Muur’s relative powers is greater than the probability that Muur grew.

No, I do not, since its completely irrelevant to every single point I’ve made, and to the core of my argument. If Muur is relative to Sidious then all it does is countering your scaling chain. Right now, all you’re doing is trying to counter points I have not made, and don’t have to counter.

HP wrote wrote:But the issue with your argument here is your concession that the means you provide for growth are only the ”usual” way in which a character’s powers increase - leaving the door open to other methods.

The “usual” was put there in case I forgot something, like for example spiritual enlightenment. However the issue is that you have given no examples or explanation for Muur growing. You have no evidence supporting your argument, and if you can’t even provide a reasonable way for Muur to have grown, then honestly it can’t be right. I’ve asked for a way for Muur to have grown repeatedly in my last post, and you’ve ignored it throughout all of your reply.


Provide a reasonable way for Muur to have grown, otherwise you have no case

HP wrote wrote: I wouldn’t consider that a terribly productive time, even if he did increase in power, either.

If he went from hundreds of ragdoll gaps bellow TPM Maul to DT Sidious tier, then not only is it a productive use of time, it would be the biggest growth in all of SW history. Don’t think Muur would call that a “waste”. And you pretty much nail the point with your examples anyways; he’s unable to gain knowledge, he’s unable to practice powers, he’s unable to test new applications of abilities, he’s stuck doing nothing. He can’t have grown because he was trapped inside a box.


I also want to bring up one more point in this section, that being a comparison with someone living through a very similar situation: Remulus Dreypa. Like Muur he was trapped in an oubliette, for four millennia (about as long as Muur). If they grow inside them “even miniscule amounts”, then he should be noticeably more powerful than he was before. Yet when he uses his powers to kill sith upon his awakening, he compares his abilities directly to that of the exiles of his time:






The doomed also consistently compare his current power with that he possessed four millennia ago, saying that their people “know what he can do” due to the history of their people (which started with the jedi that fought Dreypa and sith that served him, so they would know his power well).




Lastly I will bring up the points that you neglected to answer;

I wrote wrote:“You have to prove such growth”

I wrote wrote:“What makes Muur growing while trapped in stasis in a host that resists him plausible”

1. You misunderstood my core argument, or ignored it.
2. Unless you prove Muur has grown, you entire scaling chain is wrong.
3. But per your own admission nothing in SW lore supports this.
4. No ways for Muur to have grown have been provided

5. Dreypa, in the same position, did not experience any growth.

Talisman

 

HP wrote wrote:To preface, the writers of Legacy hold Krayt with Sidious, yet your argument would have us believe a mere imprint of Muur’s power is being written as comparable to the most powerful Sith of all time.

Multiple problems here:
1.       If you try to argue that due to holistic intent a sith shouldn’t be above Sidious, you’ve already made the following chain: Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt >> Vong Krayt ~ Karness Muur ~ Darth Sidious, which has Reborn Krayt multiple gaps above Sidious. So by your standards this would be “dishonest”. You’re blatantly trying to hold me to some higher standards of SW debating while breaking it yourself.


2.       I have never mentioned Sidious vs Pall or Muur or Cade or Krayt. You’re the one trying to force them there. So if I say Living Muur >> (Potential) Spirit Muur >> Talisman Muur >> Morne < Vong Krayt + Maladi, and you from that get Muur >>>> Sidious, that’s on you, not me.


3.     That Krayt is in Sidious’s tier because he killed four forceusers. So your case establishes the fact that any person who can kill four forceusers at the same time is Sidious level. As shown before Dreypa could easily kill three, so I don’t think that’s out of Pall’s ability. Hence Pall is now Sidious tier and your scaling chain is wrong, gg.


4.       This also assumes that the writers are allowed to dictate Sidious’s power level.

HP wrote wrote:...spirits are essence???

Essence is simply what determines something’s character. It can refer to spirit, it can refer to mind, it can refer to personality. Its situational.

HP wrote wrote:It’s not the fact that it’s a talisman that’s the difference, it’s that it’s the talisman - the one which contains his ”very mind and will”

They don’t say “a talisman” yes, they say “the”. But it’s because it’s a specific talisman, the one he currently has attached to Morne, not because it’s some ultra-special talisman that houses his spirit. It’s a talisman he put his mind into, which now presents an issue for the One Sith.

HP wrote wrote:So, when the scans you posted say Muur’s talisman holds his ”essence” and ”very mind and will” they really mean it just has an ”echo” // ”imprint” of his spirit?

His essence, his mind and his will all can be included in an imprint, a mark of what he was. This is further shown by him outright being referred to as a “personality” in vector, by the OOU narrator:





You also conveniently ignored the fact that Muur’s power is that of the talisman exclusively, as I showed before by Morne actively using it against his will and saying that Muur has the power to stop Vader and then using the power of the amulet.

Muur vs Krayt vs Cade
 

Muur vs Krayt

 

HP wrote wrote:Krayt mitigating Muur’s big Lightning Blast, despite the circumstances against him, shows his closeness.

Mitigate yes. Lessen yes. But he’s still nearly dead, can’t even stand upright. Any forceuser can mitigate a force attack to some extent, but comparability would have him block the attack like Yoda vs Dooku in AotC, or at least not be knocked near unconscious and helpless to a second attack. And lets not forget he did not take the full attack; Rae was killed to the point even Cade healing her left her permanently damaged and deformed, Cade, Maladi and others were thrown away by a force wave that impacted the entire area. It’s a nice durability feat for Krayt, but not an indication of closeness.

HP wrote wrote:My point isn’t that some of these circumstances aren’t things that apply in neutral conditions

But this is still a relevant point, if Legacy characters can’t counter force drain, whats to stop Pall from using it on Cade in this fight?

HP wrote wrote:What’s your proof she’s inferior to the talisman?

Are you serious? All of Vector is my proof:

Morne openly admits that she can’t beat Vader, but the talisman can. Don’t see how you can read Vector and come out thinking “Morne > the talisman”, when the whole plot is based around her containing the power and failing.

HP wrote wrote:He was charging up an attack before the stab. What do you think was happening to the energy he was draining from Krayt, and why did he not instantly subdue everyone like he supposedly could as soon as he combined his power with Morne’s but wait several moments instead?

Draining energy and using it is not the same as actively charging up an attack. He drained the attack from Krayt and then fired his. The attack itself was generated in a moment, as it literally goes from drain to attack. Rae is attacking Krayt while Muur is still absorbing the attack, and then Muur fires once Krayt stops firing his own lightning. There is no moment in which Muur stands around charging up an attack.


Also as for why Muur didn’t beat Krayt earlier, he didn’t have time. Early in the fight Morne took control from him. In the later stages Muur only takes back control as Krayt fires his lightning.


The chain of events is:
Krayt fires lightning > Muur takes control > Muur absorbs lightning / Rae stabs Krayt > Muur fires lightning.

HP wrote wrote:I didn’t claim otherwise.

Maybe, maybe not. You seemed to suggest it though, so wanted to make sure.

HP wrote wrote:The only people we see hit by the blast are Maladi, Alzyn, Shado and an Imperial Knight (I forget the Knight’s name) - there’s no reason to assume it knocked over everyone.

We also see Cade on the ground later, fair on Stryfe and Talon. Also important to remember is that all four were hit by a 360 degree shockwave that was greater in height than them, meaning that they were hit only by a very small amount of the full power. Rae however took the same lightning attack as Krayt, so she would share the damage with him.

HP wrote wrote:Maladi is fodder to either, so this doesn’t affect the feat much.

Yet Muur, Krayt and Maladi explicitly think that she has a large impact on the fight

HP wrote wrote:Since when does ”outshone” mean ”superior to”? Muur would obviously shine most brightly out of the 3 given that he won, but this doesn’t tell us anything about his relationship to Cade and Krayt, given the context behind said victory.

Muur didn’t win, he ended up dead. Cade was the ultimate winner, so Muur outshining them can’t refer to that.


You’re also ignoring the full sentence. Its specifically referring to the fact that Muur’s power outshines them, not the results of the battle.

HP wrote wrote:...but I thought Muur was vastly weaker here than he was while living? Why is he rambling about feats he doesn’t scale to?

He’s easily killed more powerful sith. Doesn’t need his full power to kill a weaker sith than those mentioned, even if it could potentially be more difficult (but as we know, it wasn’t).

HP wrote wrote:The fact that Muur has been accurate in the past doesn’t necessarily mean he is here. He has no way to concretely know Krayt’s power given that he’s never experienced its full potency

He’s seen Cade’s abilities, he’s discussed the One Sith with the main cast, he’s in combat with Krayt so he senses his combative power, and he does not need to see Krayt fight to sense his inherent power. For example, he sensed that Leia was more powerful than Morne, despite Morne at the time stomping Luke, who’s massively superior to Leia’s currently completely unrealised power. 


Power Leia uses: None
Power Muur senses: >> Morne who’s >>> Luke at the time.


There is no reason to assume Muur is wrong, and if there was, you have provided none.

HP wrote wrote:Moreover, his arrogance may cause him to exaggerate his past feats: we have no concrete way of knowing how impressive this Sith truly is, whether Muur’s victory was even legitimate, etc.

Why is the standard assumption that he’s lying? Is there cause to believe he’s lying at this specific instance when he hasn’t done so before?
We have a way to know how powerful these sith are; Muur explicitly states they’re >> Krayt. And why would him killing sith while fighting Krayt in a duel be relevant if he stabbed them in the back?


All of this seem like attempts of handwaving when we have no cause to believe he would be wrong.

HP wrote wrote:The fact that Muur has been accurate in the past doesn’t necessarily mean he is here.

This basically just says; “even though he’s always accurate before, he might not be here for reasons”.

HP wrote wrote:The actual fight between the two tells us what Muur’s power level relative to Krayt really is - as I explained last post - and he’s certainly not vastly beyond him.

Yet while the fight shows Muur’s superiority anyways, the fight is irrelevant to prime Muur as like you mentioned “Muur was vastly weaker here than he was while living”. We know where prime Muur stands as prime Muur >> more powerful sith than Krayt.

Wyyrlok vs Krayt

 

HP wrote wrote:Your order is wrong.

You are correct. This was from an early draft and I forgot to fix it. The correct order is force, duel, and force.

HP wrote wrote:...that all could have happened in less than 15 seconds.

Yet your entire argument for Cade’s closeness to Krayt and the Cade – Talon relation is that the duels are far longer than they appear.


And you argue that the Talon vs Cade fight in Vector indicates proximity, yet the first force segment/duelling segment of the Wyyrlok vs Krayt fight is two pages, as long as the fight between Talon and Cade. And the Cade vs Krayt fight ended after a page and two panels, being shorter.


And this is ignoring the last force segment, which while yes had Krayt win, did not leave Krayt unaffected, as we visibly see his body age and weaken, only returning to normal as he breaks free. The full fight is 4 pages and one panel long, and longer than any of the fights you use to argue proximity.



But again, even if you disregard the last force segment, the Wyyrlok vs Krayt fight was longer than Cade vs Krayt, and actually one panel longer than the Talon vs Cade fight you use for proximity, as after two pages Krayt and Wyyrlok still haven’t finished the duel.

And of course, you can’t say that pages and panels aren’t a valid way to measure the length of duels, as you specifically used it as such:

HP wrote wrote:Also, what do you mean the fight is only ”possibly” shorter? It’s way less pages

So the chain stands: Ajunta Pall > Living Muur >> Spirit Muur >> Essence Muur > Vong Krayt > Wyyrlok < Vong Krayt < Reborn Krayt > Cade

Talon vs Cade vs Muur

 
Going to be short:

HP wrote wrote:Refer to my earlier rebuttal where I discussed the Vector fight. The scan never depicts Talon being hit by the blast, and she was already subdued earlier by Cade - which is the more likely reason she was in a bacta tank.

You are right, I misremembered and thought that Talon was on the panel where Muur pushed everyone. Doesn’t really hurt my case in any significant way though, and it gave me the confirmation I wanted.


Power of the Exiles

I. XoXaan

 

HP wrote wrote:The segment which says he was an apprentice to XoXaan is separated from the rest of the text/Krayt’s return to Korriban by parenthesis, so it has nothing to do with that - it’s referencing his initial tutelage under her before he was captured by the Vong, to show how far he’s come. Or, do you think Krayt, despite being labelled a Darth in that very same scan, hasn’t yet ”embraced the way of the Sith”?

…what? How can someone not understand a single sentence?


He returned to Korriban, first as an apprentice, then as a master. The reason its separated is to show the order of the events. He’s a darth, but an apprentice, not yet a master. Your argument falls apart when you realise that Hett explicitly was not ready to embrace the way of the sith on his first visit on Korriban:




I thought you had read the comics. 

HP wrote wrote:XoXaan was only Hett’s master because he lacked knowledge of the Dark Side - he was only a Jedi when he apprenticed himself to her, as clarified above - and needed someone to teach him, not due to lacking power on his part.

Yet if all he needed was knowledge, he wouldn’t become an apprentice. He would just study the holocron. Quinlan Vos was not Andeddu’s apprentice, yet he still learned of the darkside from his holocron. Krayt becoming an apprentice means XoXaan was his master, which in sith terms only a superior can be.

HP wrote wrote:Where do you suppose the flaw is here? Some of my scaling chains are based on character opinions, but this is all based on direct statements of superiority and combat feats.

We do know that Kenobi vs Maul is set in stone as it occurred in the story yes. We know that Kenobi is massively above Hett yes. However Krayt surpassing Kenobi or Maul is not a direct statement or feat, it never explicitly occurs in the story, XoXaan being Krayt’s master does. And Maul beating Kun also never explicitly occurs in SW lore, it’s a statement that can be proven false per the rules by XoXaan being superior to apprentice Krayt in a confirmed SW story. Same applies to Kun > Exiles. By direct comparison, we know at least one part of that chain is wrong. I don’t have to show which is wrong when we know that one is.

II. ANDEDDUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

For the second part of the argument that the exiles of old are superior to the One Sith, I wish to compare Andeddu to the Exiles. However first I want to show why Andeddu is even relevant:


Andeddu gets awakened during the Legacy era, and duels Wyyrlok. This duel lasts five pages, making it as long as Reborn Krayt vs Cade and Vector Cade vs Talon combined (and remember, you set pages and dialogue as the parameters for length. This applies to both these factors). Both duels you use for proximity, so Andeddu should be very close to Wyyrlok. I’ve already compared Wyyrlok’s standing to Reborn Krayt, so with this we can assume that Andeddu would be capable of giving a decent fight to Reborn Krayt. 









Yet at the end Wyyrlok considers Andeddu fearful, a coward, a failure, and weak of mind. 

This is despite Wyyrlok directly considering will the source of power in the force, meaning that he considers Andeddu weak:




Yet later, when discussing the Exiles as they were in the past, Wyyrlok explicitly states they were powerful (even during their rebellion, before massive growth), despite looking down on the past generations of sith.



This gives us the following chain: Reborn Krayt > Wyyrlok > Andeddu << rebellion exiles << the average exile << Muur < Pall. With the gap between Andeddu and Krayt being small enough that Andeddu can give him a decent fight before dying.

What is also worth noting is that Dooku believes that Darth Andeddu’s holocron had the wisdom and the power of the sith, and in the next sentence claims that dark jedi are nothing compared to the power of the sith. Meaning he holds all the dark jedi of his era as significantly inferior to Andeddu, which includes the likes of Vos, Bulq, Ventress, etc. Ventress matching or outperforming characters that scale above TPM Maul (like Mace Windu, Kenobi, Anakin, etc.). This would place Andeddu and therefore the Exiles above half your chain at least, and leaving room for Andeddu being below all the exiles, would push Pall and Muur even higher.





So we have:


Cade < Reborn Krayt > Wyyrlok > Andeddu << rebellion exiles << the average exile << Muur < Pall


and

Pall > Muur >> exiles >> rebellion exiles >> Andeddu >> Ventress >> Maul


Conclusion

You did nothing to counter my center argument, to the point I don't think you understood it at all. Meanwhile all your counters were simply that you must be right and I must be right (fore example Muur must have grown!), without then explaining how (how can he grow) or why (why must he have grown). By the power of direct comparison your entire case is irrelevant and false, and if you actually understood that you might actually counter something. 


TLDR; Pall stomps

Thank you for responding so quickly. I have exams until June 4th, so I won't be able to start writing anything until then, but I hope that - once they're over - I'll have a reply up by the end of June.