SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

Rules:

-Time Limits, Number of Posts, and Character Count:

--Both Cheth and I have agreed to having no character count or time limit.

--There will be 3 posts per side - 6 posts in total.

-Fight Conditions:

--The combatants will fight in-character, with morals on, and are at their peak combative state bar external amps or other circumstantial power boosts. They will start 100 meters away from each other on open grass fields. Victory necessitates permanently killing or destroying the physical body of the opponent.

-General Rules regarding methodology and policy:

--Both Cheth and I must follow Lucasfilm Licensing continuity policy and the internal continuity rankings of Leland Chee's Holocron database system as outlined here.

--Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.

--Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.

--All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

May the best man win.

Thanks for making the thread and good luck, looking forwards to your opener

gl

Can't wait

Interesting. Good luck to both of you

There's like four canon pictures of him and you choose the one that's just a Dark Jedi skin with an energy shield turned on.

Good luck to both parties, and congratz to HP Legend for picking a character other than Starkiller for once and debate for him.

C h e t h z e r i o n

Praxis wrote:C h e t h z e r i o n

didnt know u were a itachi tard. a good/bad surprise.

L o b e n z o

Thank you to everyone offering luck, hope you'll enjoy the debate:)

T4V Hoping this will be a great debate.

Neat. Can't wait to watch. <3

@Nute_Chethray

I. Exar Kun

Per The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Exar Kun was “the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith” that had existed up until that point in time. Given that Ajunta Pall was amongst the Dark Lords of the Sith preceding Kun, this quote would include him, and thus he is canonically inferior to Kun.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the Rise of the Empire.

Also, in case you try to dispute the wording of the quote, Steve Sansweet has stated that it includes characters “up to that point in the timeline of the Expanded Universe” - confirming my interpretation is correct.

II. Darth Malak

A) Superiority to Kun

According to the article, Darth Malak - An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Darth Malak is far more powerful than Exar Kun. The article states, ”He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support.”, and subsequently asks the question: ”Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?” While the quote is a question, the question is not whether or not Malak possessed powers ”far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd”, but rather what gave him those powers, hence: ”Or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?” As to what did give Malak those powers, the statement is an obvious reference to the Star Forge, which is the real power source Malak has at his disposal as we see in Knights of the Old Republic. It is also clearly referring to the Force Powers the Star Forge gave him - when it states ”powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd” - not the militaristic powers, as it poses ”cybernetic enhancement” as a plausible explanation, which has nothing to do with military strength and everything to do with personal power.

B) Independent superiority to Ajunta Pall

Ajunta Pall was one of the original Jedi Exiles who fled to Korriban after the Hundred Year Darkness conflict. One thousand years before, the Rakata created the Star Map, a device ingrained with the Dark Side which leads to the Star Forge. The Exiles utilised the map as a source of power, and, as far as Knights of the Old Republic indicates, the power contained within the Star Map was greater than that of Pall or any of the other Exiles. The proof of this is two-fold:

(1) Ajunta states: ”We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere. [...] Our oldest secret. Only… only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from… [...] And so here our oldest secret is buried and none of us hold it anymore… is that not right? Our power fled.” The fact that Ajunta identifies the Star Map as the reason that The Exiles were so powerful suggests that it is not lesser than their personal power, otherwise he would be emphasising that as the reason for their strength - not the Star Map - and the Map itself would be described more as a useful boon as opposed to where their ”power came from”.

(2) Ajunta follows that up by saying: “So much power… it is blinding.” Pall being in such awe of the power possessed by the Star Map reaffirms its greater power and my above points.

...and given that the Star Map holds greater power than Pall, I should think the ramifications on Malak are self-evident. There’s no argument to be made that the Star Map is more powerful than the Star Forge, or even close to as powerful to it, as the Star Map was literally created for the purpose of finding the Star Forge: why would a device created to lead to a place of immense power - a place that is infinitely greater in scale than said device - have power even close to the place it’s leading to? And, while the Exiles are likely less powerful than the map, Malak demonstrates total Mastery over the Star Forge - pushing it to its full potential - displaying his full superiority to them. Overall, it should be clear Malak is vastly more powerful than Ajunta Pall.

Darth Malak, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:You made a mistake coming here, Revan. The Star Forge fuels my command of the dark side. You are no match for me here . . . I have surpassed you in every way and accomplished what you never could: I have unleashed the full potential of this Rakatan factory! You had no idea of the power within this place! Its very walls are alive with dark side energies!

III. Revan

During Knights of the Old Republic, Revan defeats Malak while the latter was amped by the Star Forge.

Darth Malak, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:You made a mistake coming here, Revan. The Star Forge fuels my command of the dark side. You are no match for me here . . . I have surpassed you in every way and accomplished what you never could: I have unleashed the full potential of this Rakatan factory! You had no idea of the power within this place! Its very walls are alive with dark side energies!

A single defeat of such a powerful character would already be impressive, but Revan had to defeat him several times consecutively, as Malak drained Force Energy from the 8 chained Jedi captives.

Databank - Darth Malak wrote:The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

Darth Malak, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi!

This shows that Revan evidently has considerably greater overall combative ability than Malak.

IV. The Sith Emperor

A) The Old Republic: Revan

As is made obvious in The Old Republic: Revan, Revan - at a time when he was more powerful than when he faced Malak - is considerably inferior to Vitiate. Revan muses in the novel - prior to his confrontation with Vitiate - that, he “knew he couldn’t go toe-to-toe with the Emperor by himself for very long”, and that it was only “with the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3” that he ”stood a real chance of victory”. Moreover, in their fight Vitiate overpowers Revan with Force Lightning - showing superiority in power:

The Old Republic: Revan wrote:Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

And, as a final point, even with the help of Meetra and Scourge, Revan is inferior to Vitiate, as the Essential Reader’s Companion states, ”The Emperor’s power is too much for Revan. Recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable, Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan.”, which is affirmed by Scourge in the novel noting that: “The Emperor would have won regardless.”

Per all indicators, Revan - as of the novel - is substantially below Vitiate.

B) The Old Republic: Jedi Knight Storyline: Act 3

As of The Old Republic: Jedi Knight Storyline: Act 3, The Sith Emperor is far more powerful than he was in The Old Republic: Revan. Even while The Emperor was ”weakened”, from having attempted to drain the entire galaxy, Scourge stated that the Hero of Tython must face him alone, because “no one else can resist his direct influence” which indicates Scourge would not be a positive influence in the fight - even when backed by a character who is more powerful than Vitiate. This is in total contrast to The Old Republic: Revan, where a 300 years pre-prime Scourge would be a positive influence in the fight - despite being backed by two characters who are collectively less powerful than Vitiate, in contrast to the Hero - as Revan believed his allies could grant him a victory against Vitiate where he alone would fail (see previous section for quotes).

V. The Hero of Tython

A) The Old Republic: Jedi Knight Storyline: Act 3

During The Old Republic: Jedi Knight Storyline: Act 3, The Hero of Tython was sent to stop Vitiate from enacting his ritual to drain the galaxy. Scourge stressed to the Hero before his fight with Vitiate that The Emperor would recover swiftly from the weakness mentioned in the prior section, and that he had to move quickly and take Vitiate about before that: ”[The Emperor] will recover quickly. We cannot grant him time to gather his power.” However, as he battled through Vitiate’s forces in the Dark Temple, the Hero was forced to expend energy on a diversion to save his apprentice, giving Vitiate the time he needed: ”You dissipated your energy saving the weak. There are consequences.” During this time, Vitiate was noted to have gathered his strength by Scourge, who criticises the Hero for letting Vitiate do this afterwards: ”You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are all fortunate to be alive.” Given that The Emperor ”gathering his strength/power” would cause him to ”recover”, as is stated by Scourge prior, it should be clear that Vitiate was no longer ”weakened”, and thus the Hero was facing him at full strength: so, he’s considerably above the weakened iteration that is firmly beyond Vitiate in The Old Republic: Revan. In spite of this, and the fact that the Hero had expended energy by saving Kira, and the fact that they fought on a potent Dark Side Nexus, the Hero managed to defeat Vitiate - demonstrating his superiority.

B) The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan

On top of the above, further establishing the disparity between Vitiate and the Hero, we have the fact that the Hero wasn’t even at his combative prime. During The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan, after the aforementioned events, he endures spiritual cleansing becoming ”healed”, ”whole”, and reclaiming ”power” that is a ”weapon” in his eyes - amplifying his already formidable abilities.

The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan wrote:"It was about healing an old scar you've almost forgotten. One that still aches inside you."

"The Emperor."

"You were under his control. His darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you, you pushed the memories of his training down deep. I can bring those memories back. You're strong enough to handle them; let the light cure them and make you whole."

"Yes. Let me be healed." // "I want the darkness I forgot! The Emperor immersed me in the dark side. Darth Revan was the only other Jedi to come back from that. My memories of that time are power. That power is my right and my weapon. I claim it."

[[Orgus Din cleanses the Hero of Tython.]]

"I am whole."

Overall, there’s a fairly solid disparity between the Hero and Vitiate, given the circumstances behind their fight, and the Hero’s subsequent growth.

--- --- --- --- --- ---

I. Darth Maul

A) The Phantom Menace

Per the Power of the Jedi: Episode 1 Flap book, Darth Maul is ”proof that (The Sith) are back - and deadlier than ever” - making Maul himself deadlier combatively (given that the context is a duel) than any Sith who preceded him. While this quote does not bind Darth Malak or Vitiate, due to the date it was published, the quote was created after the conception of Exar Kun, placing him and - by proxy - Ajunta Pall below Maul.

B) The Clone Wars

Maul during The Clone Wars: Season 5 is at a power level far above the one that he operated at in The Phantom Menace. As is noted Shadow Conspiracy, Maul is ”strengthened” and ”more powerful” by the time of his duel with Sidious.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Umbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the Dark Side to fill with its power.

Note that characters who have undergone similar experiences to Maul - i.e. rebirth - have increased in power tremendously as a result. For example, Darth Krayt - as I’ll demonstrate later in my post - increased in power massively with his Rebirth: he’s far stronger per himself, and he matches Cade’s growth - as is proven by Cade giving him a similar performance in their first and final fight - despite the fact that Cade increased in power enough to shitstomp people he was being given decent fights by prior.

This places Maul ridiculously far above a version of him that was already beyond Ajunta.

II. Obi-Wan Kenobi

As we can blatantly see in The Clone Wars: Season 5, Kenobi is, at the very least, on par with Maul - the same Maul that can slap his The Phantom Menace self who beats Ajunta - and possibly above him.



Key takeaways:

(1) Kenobi duels him for a minute with no decisive edge shown either way - indicating equality - though I will note that Kenobi is the only one to land a physical strike in that part of the fight - perhaps suggesting he’s superior.

(2) Later in the duel, Kenobi takes on both Maul and Savage. Throughout the exchange, he manages to hold off the duo’s onslaught for a significant period of time and injure Savage - again, this perhaps suggests he’s better.

III. Anakin Skywalker

A) Jedi Knight

According to the Revenge of the Sith Novelization, Anakin is ”perhaps the most powerful Jedi of any generation”. Given that the narrator for Revenge of the Sith is explicitly within the Star Wars Universe, the statement is not bound by OOU dating, and thus places Anakin in the same ballpark as the Hero of Tython when he’s only a Jedi (the uncertainty with the word ”perhaps” stops him from binding the Hero fully). However, even if you want to - for some arbitrary reason - still bind this quote’s knowledge to only that which had been conceived prior to its creation, it would still include Revan as of Knights of the Old Republic, and subsequently everyone below him in the chain I outlined.

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

B) Sith Apprentice

Anakin’s turn to the Dark Side granted him ”newfound power” which marked an ”enormous” // ”huge” increase in combative ability for him. Given the extent of his growth, the uncertainty in the prior quote should be entirely erased, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to conclude that Anakin - by the end of Revenge of the Sith - is more powerful than any Jedi in history who came before him.

IV. Darth Sidious

A) Superiority to Maul and Savage

During The Clone Wars: Season 5: Episode 16: The Lawless, Sidious duels Maul and Savage - showing decisive superiority to them both. He forces down their combined strength - at the beginning of the duel - while laughing, continually lands physical strikes on them - while, with the brothers’ combined efforts, Savage only lands a headbutt - forces an opening in Maul’s defences and one-shots him with a Force Push, puts away his Lightsabers, and casually dances around - plus, toys with - Savage before gutting him. There’s a marked combative difference here which establishes Sidious would absolutely curbstomp Maul by himself, and would absolutely shred pre-prime Maul, as of The Phantom Menace - who is superior to Kun and Ajunta - into oblivion.

B) Equality with Anakin

Per George Lucas, the ultimate authority on Star Wars, Anakin after all of his Dark Side growth is only ”as strong as The Emperor”, and never achieved his potential to kill him.

George Lucas wrote:And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

This places the Hero of Tython below Sidious, and subsequently, places Ajunta Pall leagues below Palpatine - due to the scaling I outlined in section 1.

C) Independent superiority to Ajunta Pall

Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm states that Sidious is ”the most powerful Sith Lord in history”. This quote was created after the creation of Malak, and thus binds him below Sidious, making Sidious - by proxy of the scaling outlined earlier in my post - vastly stronger than Ajunta Pall. Moreover, the quote is clearly referring to Force Power given that the surrounding context is his duel with Yoda - it’s explaining the extent to which he’s a threat to the little green freak combatively.

Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm wrote:When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

--- --- --- --- --- ---

I. A’Sharad Hett

Two years after Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan Kenobi ends up having to face the once great Jedi A’Sharad Hett in order to protect Luke. Everything considered Hett manages to put up a pretty solid fight against him:

The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two lightsabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed.

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

As prepared as Ben was for many things, he was not ready to die. Not yet. Not today. Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. Ben gripped his own weapon with both hands as he swung at Hett's legs, but Hett blocked the swipe. There was another loud sizzle as the blades dragged across each other.

Ben gasped as Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff. The kick knocked Ben off his feet, and as he fell back through the air, Hett hurled one of his lightsabers at Ben's body. Ben clung tight to his own lightsaber as he twisted his body in midair to avoid being struck by the spinning blade of Hett's weapon. The moment Hett's lightsaber whipped past Ben's head, Hett used the Force to retrieve it, drawing it back to his waiting left hand.

As Hett caught the lightsaber, Ben rolled up from the ground and swung out again. Hett blocked the strike with his right lightsaber, then threw his left arm forward to smash his other lightsaber's handle into Ben's jaw. Ben ignored the painful jolt to his head and reflexively brought his blade up high, forcing Hett to block the blow with his right lightsaber and leaving his own midsection briefly exposed. Before Hett could strike with his other lightsaber, Ben kicked him hard in the stomach.

Hett grunted, but he didn't go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill. Not one of the mounted Tuskens so much as flinched as they watched the duel, nor did they rally for their chief. They merely watched in silence, waiting for the outcome.

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's. Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

Firstly, to clarify, Kenobi is on the same level as he was during Revenge of the Sith, thereby scaling him above the iteration that duelled evenly with Maul - it is stated that Kenobi had “continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine” and “not allowed his reflexes to become dull". Secondly, Hett shows closeness with Kenobi - he lands multiple blows on the latter and causes him difficulty when Kenobi attempts to defend against and dodge some of his attacks: “Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. [...] Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease.” Overall, Hett is too close to Kenobi for him to be weaker than The Phantom Menace Maul, and even if you want to dispute this, any debilitating circumstances - or anything lacking in his performance - you can cite are compensated for tenfold by the massive growth Hett receives - which I’ll show the extent of later in my post.

II. Karness Muur

A) Karness Muur’s relativity to Sidious

Karness Muur is demonstrably in the same league as Darth Sidious during Dark Times 12: Vector: Part 6, as we can see in the following scan:



Vader believes both he and Muur are strong enough to take out Sidious together as of 19BBY. However, while it is Vader and Muur combined who can take out Sidious in Vader’s belief, it should be obvious that Muur is the primary factor here, and that Vader’s strength would be utterly negligible in a hypothetical fight between the duo and Sidious for the following reasons:

(1) What is emphasised in the scan is the power of the Muur talisman, not Vader’s own strength - it’s not even mentioned - making it clear the talisman is by far the greater factor: ”But Vader has come to a crux of his own. He can feel the power the talisman holds. He could slay this Jedi… be done with her… ...but… by embracing the power of the Muur talisman, will he achieve his objective-- --or merely trade one master for another?”

(2) Vader is subservient to Muur after the fact, making it clear Muur is considerably more powerful than him: ”By embracing the power of the Muur talisman, will he achieve his objective-- --or merely trade one master for another?”

(3) Vader rejects Muur because of the fact that he would merely be trading one master for another, which would make no sense if Muur was substantially weaker than Sidious, as - in that case - there’d be advantages to having Muur as a master, for example he’d be easier to overpower in the long run: ”By embracing the power of the Muur talisman, will he achieve his objective-- --or merely trade one master for another?”

(4) Vader is nothing compared to Sidious at this time. At his prime in Return of the Jedi he is slower and less skilled than Qui-Gon Jinn; as well as canonically equal to Luke Skywalker in power, who is less powerful than Jinn. And, of course, The Phantom Menace Maul has displayed that he is considerably beyond Jinn in their fight(s), and he is a gnat to Sidious - see the scaling I provided prior. Based on all of this, the idea that Vader would play a valuable role in the fight is mega suspect.

George Lucas wrote:Then when we move to the Prequel, where there were Jedi and they were full flower and fighting as they were in the past, you know, well trained Jedi, then we had to make the sword fights much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggressive in terms of the way they’re fought.

George Lucas wrote:I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we’d already done, but a more energized version of it. Because we’d never seen real Jedi’s at work, we’d only seen, you know, old men and crippled, half-droid, half-men and young boys that had learned from these people. So, to see a Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we’ve been doing.

Beware the Sith wrote:Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

Jedi Battles wrote:Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.

In summary, Karness Muur isn’t that far off Sidious.

B) Muur’s alleged inferiority to Ajunta Pall

A potential point of contention with the above is that Karness Muur is below Ajunta Pall - as evidenced by Pall being the Dark Lord of the Sith when The Exiles fled to Korriban, and not Muur. However, that was thousands of years before Dark Times, and thus there’s no reason to use it to bind Muur below Pall as of this specific time period, due to the potential for Muurian mega growth in the interim. After all, the available evidence suggests Muur would absolutely crush Pall, and I see no reason to doubt it or the possibility that Muur grew. Furthermore, it’s stated that Muur ”grows more dangerous as the centuries pass”, potentially alluding to power growth on his part, though, admittedly the word ”dangerous” could refer to Muur’s increasing activity. Nevertheless, the plausible explanation remains, and, if you wish to dispute the idea that Muur grew in power, you must explain why, as the evidence favours my case.



--- --- --- --- --- ---

I. Darth Krayt

A) Legacy: Claws of the Dragon

As of Legacy: Claws of the Dragon, Darth Krayt is in possession of powers vastly exceeding those he had as a Jedi - when he was relatively close to Obi-Wan Kenobi. After his duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi (discussed in an earlier section of the post), Hett apprenticed himself to XoXaan in order to get revenge on Palpatine and Vader, and gained ”a great deal of strength in the Force”, as a result - placing him far beyond his Jedi self. However, in spite of this, he was only ”pretending to be a Sith” and ”could still not see the power within the darkness”. That all changed when he met the Yuuzhan Vong, though, as they tortured him with the Embrace of Pain: amplifying his powers vastly beyond those that already considerably exceeded his power as a Jedi - so that he could finally ”see the power within the darkness” - and causing the birth of Darth Krayt: ”A’Sharad Hett died on that Vong Ship. Darth Krayt was born…” Furthermore, after the fact, Krayt had 100 years to grow in power and ”perfected his combat techniques over many decades”.











To stress something about a potential counter-argument before I move on: if you want to claim that all of this growth is negated by Krayt being hindered by the Vong Coral Seeds, I would like proof that they even weaken his power in combat, as all they’ve been shown to do is worsen his physical condition.

Furthermore, even if you can provide this proof, Krayt still states in Legacy: Claws of the Dragon that he’s vastly beyond Hett anyway:

Darth Krayt, Legacy: Claws of the Dragon wrote:Do you think you can stand against me, Skywalker? I completed my training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills in the Clone Wars and I’ve killed thousands of opponents since then.

Krayt explains here why he’s stronger than Cade - the depth of his training, how many opponents he’s killed, how he honed his skills during war, etc. Now answer me this very simple question: why would Krayt be ranting about all of this, if he’s in actuality declined so far that he’s below his Jedi self, thereby making all of it irrelevant? It makes absolutely no sense - the simplest explanation is that Krayt is far stronger than he was a Jedi. His years of training, experience, knowledge collection, etc, don’t just go away, because his physical condition has got worse.

B) Legacy: Vector

During Legacy: Vector, Darth Krayt demonstrates he is - at the very least - comparable to Karness Muur in power - the same Muur who isn’t far off Sidious. This is evidenced by the end of their fight, where Muur combines his strength with that of Celeste Morne’s, and yet only breaches Krayt’s defences with a charged blast - powered by Krayt’s own energies from Force Draining him - when Krayt had been stabbed in the back. Moreover, Krayt - despite all of the circumstances against him - manages to not only survive Muur’s mega attack, but the subsequent massive fall: even mitigating the attack to the extent that he’s not even scorched by the Lightning in the same way Azlyn Rae was.

C) Legacy: War

Darth Krayt as of Legacy: War is far more powerful than he was during Legacy: Claws of the Dragon and Legacy: Vector. To preface, even if you wish to contest the idea that those iterations don’t fully benefit from his scaling to Kenobi due to the hindrance of the Vong Coral Seeds, this iteration of Krayt is not bound by those restraints - when he was reborn, he was healed from the Vong Coral Seeds. Furthermore, he did not just shed his limitations, he also experienced an amplification of his abilities from cheating death and being reborn - his power ”multiplied” to the point where he was ”so much more” than he was during the two aforementioned story arcs.

Darth Krayt, Legacy: War wrote:Death is not an ending, boy -- but it is a passageway to something greater.

Darth Krayt, Legacy: War wrote:I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied.

Darth Krayt, Legacy: War wrote:I have become so much more than you can know, traitor.

Darth Krayt, Legacy: War wrote:Surrender. You fled our last fight -- and I am so much more now than I was then.

II. Cade Skywalker

A) Legacy: Claws of the Dragon

During the events of Legacy: Claws of the Dragon, Cade Skywalker shows he’s not too far off the iteration of Darth Krayt who - while not at his peak - is capable of destroying Kenobi and mitigating charged blasts from Sidious tier combatants. Cade proves this by holding Krayt off in Lightsaber combat:







Key takeaways:

(1) The dialogue is incredibly lengthy, and if spoken at a moderate pace, takes about a minute and a half to get through. Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil, clarifies that most Lightsaber duels - as they’re too taxing for both combatants - rarely last more than a minute, and Cade vs Krayt is much longer - by Lightsaber duel standards - than a minute indicating considerable closeness between both combatants not present in the majority of other fights.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting - particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down. She, on the other hand, was barely winded. At Bane's urging, she had become an expert in the defensive sequences of the Soresu form. It was simple for her to parry, redirect, or evade her opponent's blows by using Set's own momentum against him, easily keeping the Dark Jedi at bay.

(2) Cade taxes Krayt so greatly that the Vong Coral Seeds threatening to take him start to majorly affect him, and Krayt needs to enter stasis to recover:

Cade Skywalker, Legacy: Claws of the Dragon wrote:I can see what fighting me is costing you. Those Vong… things in your innards. Nasty little critters want to take you over real bad. What do they feel like, huh? Something gnawing your guts? Clawing at you? Tell me -- do the other Sith know how sick you really are? How weak? What would they do if they knew?

Darth Krayt, Legacy: Claws of the Dragon wrote:Get me to the stasis chamber. The battle with Skywalker has cost me.

(3) While Krayt was not attempting to kill Cade he still was trying his hardest to beat him into submission - becoming very taxed as a result, and visibly fuming throughout. All this factor does is stop Krayt for going for killing blows - but he’ll definitely seize on anything short of that. Moreover, I’d say this factor is likely compensated for by Cade’s tremendous growth - which I’ll elaborate on in the next section.

In summary, an enraged Krayt failed to beat Cade into submission for half a minute and taxed himself so much he had to go into stasis to recover - indicating the two are somewhat comparable.

B) Legacy: Vector

After his aforementioned duel with Krayt, Darth Talon shows she can give Cade Skywalker a decent fight at several points throughout the series. For example:







In Legacy: Vector, Talon and Cade have a protracted duel filled with extensive dialogue that was probably at least a minute. This indicates that Talon shares loose proximity to Cade, and certainly isn’t fodder to him.

C) Legacy: War #5

Cade Skywalker as of the end of Legacy: War is far more powerful than he was during Legacy: Claws of the Dragon, and Legacy: Vector. Per Darth Talon in Legacy: War #5 Cade is ”stronger than he was”, and Legacy: War #6 further comments that Cade has a ”new mastery of the Force” at the end of the series.

Darth Talon, Legacy: War #5 wrote:Cade is… stronger… than he was.

Legacy: War #6 wrote:When Talon witnessed Cade's new mastery of the Force, she retreated to warn Krayt, leading Cade directly to his goal.

This is all demonstrated by his final duel with Talon. Where before Cade was duelling with her for pages, and having extensive dialogue exchanges with; here they exchange one piece of dialogue while bladelocked before Cade resists her TK and then one-shots her with his own blast, and their duel lasts a page. This suggests Cade would probably throttle his Legacy: Vector iteration.

D) Legacy: War #6

And here we are… at the end. In the finale of Legacy: War, Cade demonstrates he’s close to Krayt when they’re both at their respective peaks. Here’s their fight:





Key takeaways:

(1) Cade is emphasised as a threat to Krayt before the fight even begins: Talon states that she ”must warn Krayt” of Cade’s newfound power. If Krayt were even decisively superior, Talon wouldn’t consider it imperative to warn him, as he’d be pretty much assured to win. That she’s worried enough to consider it a ”must” indicates she thinks Cade’s got a real chance of winning the fight. Furthermore, this clearly isn’t a trivial detail that’s irrelevant to the narrative, as the beginning of Legacy: War #6 re-states Talon’s worry.

Legacy: War #6 wrote:When Talon witnessed Cade's new mastery of the Force, she retreated to warn Krayt, leading Cade directly to his goal.

(2) Once the fight itself has begun, and Krayt has landed a Force Push, Cade manages to negate his Telekinesis while closing the distance. Some claim the below panel is Krayt ragdolling Cade, but he’s not, as, firstly, Cade’s dialogue is him bragging about his growth indicating the panel is trying to convey he’s doing something positive, and secondly, Krayt’s is neither looking at Cade nor pointing his hand in Cade’s direction - he’s crushing the rocks Cade’s standing on. Note that Krayt’s expression also changes from calm/controlled to visibly angry in the subsequent panel which makes 0 sense if he’s just casually tossing Cade around. As to the implications of this, we’ve seen several close characters effectively utilise Telekinesis against each other - we’ve seen Maul dominate Kenobi in Sith Hunters despite them duelling evenly in The Clone Wars: Season 4, we’ve seen Saarai manhandle Stryfe despite him breaking her first hold and throwing her across the room, and, finally, we’ve seen Vader hit Luke with boxes using Telekinesis despite them having an extensive Lightsaber battle where Luke pushes Vader back multiple times - but Krayt fails to do so here, suggesting that he and Cade share closeness. And, as a kicker, further backing my argument, George Lucas himself deemed Yoda and Dooku failing to gain an edge over each other with Telekinesis as an indicator of ”equality” between the two.

George Lucas wrote:You can't just go right into the sword fight, so I decided to go back to The Empire Strikes Back of throwing things at each other, even though I knew they were equal to each other. So, it was a hopeless gesture, and they would've figured that out in two seconds, but for the audience it's nice for them to go through this process of throwing everything around.

(3) After the aforementioned feat accomplished by Cade, Krayt fails to subdue him with charged Force Lightning - with Cade managing to force him into a Lightsaber duel subsequently. This is evidenced by Krayt charging up his Lightning in the third panel, releasing it at Cade in the fourth, and us cutting back to Krayt and Cade continuing their fight in the fifth. As to the implications of this, we’ve, once again, seen several close - or reasonably close - characters overpower each other with Force Lightning - we’ve seen Sidious overpower Mace despite them having an extended duel prior, and we’ve seen Vitiate overpower Revan despite the latter being able to render Vitiate temporarily limp with Telekinesis - but Krayt fails to do so here, suggesting that he and Cade share closeness.

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.

"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"

He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—

And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

"Destroy this traitor," the Chancellor said, his voice raised aver the howl of writhing energy that joined his hands to Mace's blade. "This was never an arrest. It's an assassination!"

That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the dark side itself. Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker...

Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."

Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny..."

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin—! Please, Anaaahhh—"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

The Old Republic: Revan wrote:Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready.

Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.

There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward. He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him.

The Old Republic: Revan wrote:Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

(4) Finally, after all of the above, Cade has an extensive duel with Krayt. We know this, because the fight starts inside the Sith Temple, and ends outside the Sith Temple - a considerable distance away from it, in fact. This indicates the fight was uniquely protracted, as most Lightsaber duels - even longer ones - barely leave their starting point (e.g. Jinn vs Maul on Tatooine). Now, recall the quote from Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil, that I posted earlier: the fact that the duel was so lengthy indicates closeness.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting - particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down. She, on the other hand, was barely winded. At Bane's urging, she had become an expert in the defensive sequences of the Soresu form. It was simple for her to parry, redirect, or evade her opponent's blows by using Set's own momentum against him, easily keeping the Dark Jedi at bay.

In summary, every part of the fight indicates Cade isn’t far off Krayt - who, by all of the scaling provided, can curbstomp Ajunta Pall.

III. Summary

If you want a condensed run down of the chains I provided:

Peak Cade >> Vector Cade << Vong Krayt >>>> A’Sharad Hett << Obi-Wan Kenobi => TCW Darth Maul >> TPM Maul > Exar Kun > Ajunta Pall.

or

Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt >> Vong Krayt >>>> A’Sharad Hett << Obi-Wan Kenobi => TCW Darth Maul >> TPM Maul > Exar Kun > Ajunta Pall.

or

Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt >> Vong Krayt ~ Karness Muur ~ Darth Sidious >>> TCW Maul + Savage >> TCW Maul >> TPM Maul > Exar Kun > Ajunta Pall.

or

Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt >> Vong Krayt ~ Karness Muur ~ Darth Sidious > Darth Malak >> Exar Kun > Ajunta Pall.

or

Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt >> Vong Krayt ~ Karness Muur ~ Darth Sidious > Darth Malak >>> Ajunta Pall.

or

Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt >> Vong Krayt ~ Karness Muur ~ Darth Sidious = Anakin Skywalker > The Hero of Tython >> Act 3 Vitiate >> Novel Vitiate > Novel Revan >> Darth Malak >> Exar Kun > Ajunta Pall.

or

Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt >> Vong Krayt ~ Karness Muur ~ Darth Sidious = Anakin Skywalker > The Hero of Tython >> Act 3 Vitiate >> Novel Vitiate > Novel Revan >> Darth Malak >>> Ajunta Pall.

Tl;dr Remember the equally shit failure of an Ancient Sith, Exar Kunt? Remember when he fought a tree and lost? That’s this fight. Ajunta gets fucking treedolled.

Good start.

That was honestly entirely predictable.

Good post and thank you for such a quick starter, I'll try to reply as soon as possible

HellfireUnit wrote:Good luck to both parties, and congratz to HP Legend for picking a character other than Starkiller for once and debate for him.

I take it back. Please stick to Starkiller next time.

nice

tl;dr but very good post

So you didn’t read it but somehow know it’s a good post?

CuckedCurry wrote:So you didn’t read it but somehow know it’s a good post?

Yes because he's repping Cade Skywalker.

Interresting first post. Waiting for the response from Chet.

Calling it, Cheth's reply will amount to this: