How reliable is the Windu vs Anakin fight in the ROTS game?

Are we treating this the same as Ressurection TPM Maul vs ANH Vader? In the sense that, this scenario isn't obviously canon but instead a concrete in universe answer to who would win in a duel between ROTS Anakin and Mace. From what the cutscenes indicate, Anakin was practically destroying Mace and the only time Mace ever held an advantage was when Anakin was distracted. i.e when Mace cheapshotted Anakin with a force push when he quickly glanced at Palpatine looking over at him.
   This scenario also correlates perfectly with all the Lucas/Gillard hype regarding Anakin.

Or, do we treat this as simply just an alternative take that has no bearing in Legends canon? After all it's from the same game where KF Vader is pressed by Serra Keto (an average Knight) and then struggles against Cin Drallig (though you could make a case for Drallig being amped after witnessing Ketto's death)

What are your thoughts?

It’s Reliable

Vader is not at all pressed by Sara Keto, he toys with her while laughing and then crushes her with one swift stroke, isn’t pressed at all and the game is reliable and approved by Lucas

I believe it’s a fairly accurate representation of how the fight would go, especially when you factor in the fact that, within the context of the game, Mace has just come off fighting Sheev. Anakin’s connection to the Force enters an entirely different tier after he unleashes the dragon on the Invisible Hand, and can access that level of power at will. That level of sheer power simply transcends Vaapad—Anakin’s the most complete vessel to channel the will of the Force, and can express that will any way he likes, unless the Force works against him and favours another being of comparable power or greater mastery.

Vaelias wrote:It’s Reliable

Vader is not at all pressed by Sara Keto, he toys with her while laughing and then crushes her with one swift stroke, isn’t pressed at all and the game is reliable and approved by Lucas

You are indeed correct that he toyed with Ketto, Anakin is even even duelling her with one hand on his saber in the cutscene, implying he wasn't giving it his all. I thought I remembered the fight dragged on a bit, as there were two duels with Ketto. My point about Drallig still stands. Drallig managed to resist a force attack from Vader and unleashed a push of his own that send Vader flying back out the window

Mysteryman06 wrote:

Vaelias wrote:It’s Reliable

Vader is not at all pressed by Sara Keto, he toys with her while laughing and then crushes her with one swift stroke, isn’t pressed at all and the game is reliable and approved by Lucas

You are indeed correct that he toyed with Ketto, Anakin is even even duelling her with one hand on his saber in the cutscene, implying he wasn't giving it his all. I thought I remembered the fight dragged on a bit, as there were two duels with Ketto. My point about Drallig still stands. Drallig managed to resist a force attack from Vader and unleashed a push of his own that send Vader flying back out the window

Drallig near ragdolled him tbh, Keto was ragdolled tho, Game Drallig is one of the most powerful Jedi of all time

Wasn’t there something that Anakin would have to use all his power/skill to defeat Sara and Drallig? Well together anyway? Individual was different at least regarding Sara. Plus you could argue that both her and Drallig(moreso Drallig) wasn’t at 100% since he was fighting the 501st too before encountering Vader.

well it was licensed approved by lucasfilm as a alternative timeline so that should be enough

Given that Mace was exhausted and Anakin achieved a whole new tier of power, it's probably a bit too generous to Mace.

As long as Mace can enter his superloop, he can go on almost indefinitely unless he's up against something beyond Sidious' saber prowess. The very fact that Mace loses the way he does is indicative of Anakin's offensive output being beyond Vapaad's ability to counter. Note also that Mace only gets exhausted when defending against Sidious' lightning. That doesn't happen in the game to my knowledge, so there shouldn't be any real basis to think Mace is tired anyways

BreakofDawn wrote:Given that Mace was exhausted and Anakin achieved a whole new tier of power, it's probably a bit too generous to Mace.

I don't think there is any basis for that unless you have some evidence? The way Windu immediately reacted to Anakin's blow even when he didn't think that Anakin would betray him in this moment. I'd say he was mostly operating under his full power. In addition the game highlights during this moment https://youtu.be/SmusQi5dzEw?t=306 is when Windu tires.

Mysteryman06 wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Given that Mace was exhausted and Anakin achieved a whole new tier of power, it's probably a bit too generous to Mace.

I don't think there is any basis for that unless you have some evidence? The way Windu immediately reacted to Anakin's blow even when he didn't think that Anakin would betray him in this moment. I'd say he was mostly operating under his full power. In addition the game highlights during this moment https://youtu.be/SmusQi5dzEw?t=306 is when Windu tires.

By the end of the fight, Sidious (who has greater reserves than Mace) was visibly tired and drained. From the start of the lightning clash against an enraged Sidious, Mace's voice and tone was described as "blurry" (indicating it was distant or weak), then near the end of the attack he's explicitly described as having "no strength left".

So we have a duel that left Mace's equal/slight superior drained, then that superior launching enraged lightning at him which he's struggling to fend off whilst sounding "blurry" and faint/vague/distant (whatever terminology you prefer), then Mace explicitly being described as having no strength left as an enraged Sidious using his fury and pain to ramp up the lightning by the second is about to overwhelm him. Then take that Mace, and have him fighting an Anakin who has finally set his mind to a single task (stopping Mace).

I'd have to agree with BoD that the game is generous to Mace. The duel happens right after he's been overwhelmed by Palpatine's Force lightning which was too much for Vaapad. The game acts like Mace's reserves were fully restored.

That said the end result is the same either way. Tired or not, Mace loses to a focused Anakin.

Ok, lol. To be abundantly clear, Palpatine is never shown to use lightning on Windu in the game's version of events. There is no reason to assume so either. Anakin walks up right as Sheev has been disarmed and is backing away from Windu. Then, instead of any lightning scene, Windu goes straight for the kill and Anakin stops him, initiating the battle. Regardless of the validity behind the claim that Windu was exhausted in the novel, it doesn't mean he is in the game. So to be clear, there is no basis to assume game Windu is exhausted prior to facing Anakin. That's all there is to it. 

I also think it's unwise to take Sidious' expressions at face value here. He's very likely acting like a weak frail old man to help convince Anakin that Windu is the real enemy here. And we definitely shouldn't take this over the adult novel stating Windu could fight indefinitely against Sheev in sabers, without even the possibility of fatigue. 

TLDR: Windu wasn't tired before facing Anakin, he got bodied fair and square

The validity of the ROTS game comes from it being reflective of the intent of Lucas and LFL. It's indeed a bit outrageous to suggest the developers secretly nerfed Mace without ever alluding to such, or even mentioning the Mace vs Palpatine fight for that matter.

Ah, I remembered that Mace and Palpatine were on the ledge but not how far into their fight they were. If the Force lightning scene is missing that does explain why Mace's reserves were restored. It's an academic point anyway. I already said that even if Mace wasn't tired he'd still lose to Anakin.

I am not sure where the idea of Mace being nerfed comes from though. If he performed better than expected in a specific situation then that's the opposite of being nerfed.

KingofBlades wrote:Ok, lol. To be abundantly clear, Palpatine is never shown to use lightning on Windu in the game's version of events. There is no reason to assume so either. Anakin walks up right as Sheev has been disarmed and is backing away from Windu. Then, instead of any lightning scene, Windu goes straight for the kill and Anakin stops him, initiating the battle. Regardless of the validity behind the claim that Windu was exhausted in the novel, it doesn't mean he is in the game. So to be clear, there is no basis to assume game Windu is exhausted prior to facing Anakin. That's all there is to it. 

I also think it's unwise to take Sidious' expressions at face value here. He's very likely acting like a weak frail old man to help convince Anakin that Windu is the real enemy here. And we definitely shouldn't take this over the adult novel stating Windu could fight indefinitely against Sheev in sabers, without even the possibility of fatigue. 

TLDR: Windu wasn't tired before facing Anakin, he got bodied fair and square

For reference, your point about Mace being able to fight indefinitely is inherently flawed. It was the stalemate itself, where neither could gain an advantage, that was described as potentially being indefinite/going on forever, not Mace himself:

But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. Impasse.


The reference to the lack of fatigue is referred to on both sides, and it's quite clearly hyperbole given the immediate aftermath. Power was flowing to and from each other in a self-contained loop, but that doesn't prevent them from exerting themselves in doing so given that both were utilising considerable Force energy and reserves (per Anakin's observations) and Force attacks (Sheev's Force Blast). Given that Sheev was tired by the end of the fight (indicating that they could tire), there seems to be a clear lack of correlation between what we see in the film, novel, comic, script, etc and the game's depiction.

DarthAnt66 wrote:The validity of the ROTS game comes from it being reflective of the intent of Lucas and LFL. It's indeed a bit outrageous to suggest the developers secretly nerfed Mace without ever alluding to such, or even mentioning the Mace vs Palpatine fight for that matter.

Respectfully, how does it reflect the intent of Lucas? If it did, then we would naturally take into account the events of the film and material that he himself put forth, including Mace being in a highly strenuous and dangerous fight right beforehand, complete with FL.

If you also want to appeal to Lucas' intent, Anakin at this point can't compete with Sidious, and thus can't compete with Mace. Therefore, some element of fatigue would have had to have taken place.

@BreakofDawn

They were in the middle of a stalemate yes, and the stalemate would have kept going forever until Mace draws on Anakin's fear for another boost. If you want to say the passage was in part hyperbole, I wouldn't disagree with you, but it's obvious that the text is trying to say Mace and Palpatine were evenly matched, and not at all close to tapping out yet. It's only when having to defend against Sidious' lightning that his Vapaad superloop gets overwhelmed. 

I'd also like a citation for Sidious being tired, since I can't really think of any sources that say he was, aside from looking at how he's portrayed in the movie, which as I've explained earlier is hardly reliable

Sidious wasn’t tired there is sources that say he wasn’t and he was pretending

I think it's plausible. It's not canon obviously but who cares about that. People make mountains out of Dooku being 'tired' from fighting Kenobi and Skywalker for a whopping ten seconds with long pauses in between, before Anakin took him solo, so I don't see why Mace's much longer more grueling battle with Sidious shouldn't factor. Mace in this case just fought a grueling battle with Sidious, he's obviously not 100% game statistics be damned.

BreakofDawn wrote:The reference to the lack of fatigue is referred to on both sides, and it's quite clearly hyperbole given the immediate aftermath. Power was flowing to and from each other in a self-contained loop, but that doesn't prevent them from exerting themselves in doing so given that both were utilising considerable Force energy and reserves (per Anakin's observations) and Force attacks (Sheev's Force Blast). Given that Sheev was tired by the end of the fight (indicating that they could tire), there seems to be a clear lack of correlation between what we see in the film, novel, comic, script, etc and the game's depiction.

The laws of entropy apparently don't apply to the force even though it should to the vassals body at least. Even Sidious can't use the dark side continuously without extracting a significant toll on his flesh and bone body. Logically, even going by Force users logic, they shouldn't be able to go one forever, unless it's hyperbolic.

Don't see a reason why it isn't reliable we already know Anakin has the greater raw power and he's trying hard to save Palpatine to save is wife and he can gain more power on a whim.