Who can beat Valkorion?

Vaelias wrote:People who can beat Valk could be anyone who can deflect his force lightning or drain really that's all he can really do hes a relatively crappy duelist id argue that a fair bit of people who are less powerful than him could beat him 

for sith some notable people would be
sidious 
krayt
exar kun
bane 
plagueis
vader
caedus 

for jedi id say

luke 
yoda
mace
kyp
saba
kyle
jaina

There is one major problem with your HYPOTHESIS though. Majority of them cannot do that.

There is no guarantee that even the likes of Yoda could, given the fact that Revan (Reborn) utterly failed and he was just as strong and capable. Read the following blog: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3394-revan-revisited-2020-updated-and-expanded

Defenses against Drain Force type applications? These are not long-lasting to begin with (and rarely mastered). Even Luke does not have this capability. He was able to disrupt Darth Krayt's siphoning effort through him via a kick LMAO - both were preoccupied with Abeloth anyways.

You may familiarize yourself with known and demonstrated powers of Valkorion in the following blog: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/known-powers-of-valkorion-2020-wip/144951/

Valkorion may not be much of a lightsaber duelist but his powers were of such magnitude and so lethal, that he rarely needed to use one.

^ Got a point there.

Also a bit perhaps off topic, not sure if it's actually been discussed. But is there any notable way to resist Force Drain? Or is it just, one needs to be more powerful with their Force barrier or something, similar to how one resists TK? Because it seems to me that....like why is it only a handful of notable Sith or powerful Force Users can do it, when we clearly see even Force Adapts can use it? If there's no way to resist, then shouldn't the Sith just kinda...spam and roll over the Jedi?

Zenwolf wrote:^ Got a point there.

Also a bit perhaps off topic, not sure if it's actually been discussed. But is there any notable way to resist Force Drain? Or is it just, one needs to be more powerful with their Force barrier or something, similar to how one resists TK? Because it seems to me that....like why is it only a handful of notable Sith or powerful Force Users can do it, when we clearly see even Force Adapts can use it? If there's no way to resist, then shouldn't the Sith just kinda...spam and roll over the Jedi?

Ulic Qel-Droma knew of a technique which could offer protection for a small period of time. Anakin Skywalker learned from him, but even then, knowledge and command of this technique did not become a common practice. This is apparent from the fact that even Luke Skywalker did not had a counter to Darth Krayt's application which in turn was working on even Abeloth.

Revan circumvented through presence of Force ghost of Meetra Surik near him while he was in virtual stasis. He would not have lasted otherwise.

Best form of defense is IMMORTALITY only - a condition rarely achieved as well.

because he has more abilities that he can use on the spot vitiate needs to perform a ritual or have an external power source for virtually everything bane is a far better duelist hes faster and has better lightning

Vaelias wrote:because he has more abilities that he can use on the spot vitiate needs to perform a ritual or have an external power source for virtually everything bane is a far better duelist hes faster and has better lightning

Dude, check my blog before commenting on this topic. Ritual THEORY is "nonsense."

There are so many ways to establish that Darth Bane have nothing on Valkorion really - the former will be ONE-SHOTTED.

Duelist you say?



Arcann was a very fine duelist by any measure - among the greatest ever.

What happens next?



That is called ONE-SHOT.

Please keep in mind the fact that Arcann had superior defenses than any Jedi Master including Revan (Reborn).

Arcann is also Valkorion's own SON - he had unique talents and powers not seen in any Jedi and Sith.

Bane did channel that fire storm that was stated planetary by like 9 sources

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:^ Got a point there.

Also a bit perhaps off topic, not sure if it's actually been discussed. But is there any notable way to resist Force Drain? Or is it just, one needs to be more powerful with their Force barrier or something, similar to how one resists TK? Because it seems to me that....like why is it only a handful of notable Sith or powerful Force Users can do it, when we clearly see even Force Adapts can use it? If there's no way to resist, then shouldn't the Sith just kinda...spam and roll over the Jedi?

Ulic Qel-Droma knew of a technique which could offer protection for a small period of time. Anakin Skywalker learned from him, but even then, knowledge and command of this technique did not become a common practice. This is apparent from the fact that even Luke Skywalker did not had a counter to Darth Krayt's application which in turn was working on even Abeloth.

Revan circumvented through presence of Force ghost of Meetra Surik near him while he was in virtual stasis. He would not have lasted otherwise.

Best form of defense is IMMORTALITY only - a condition rarely achieved as well.

Wait now I'm confused, so this technique that Ulic knew can work on resisting Force Drain from Force Users and not just the Dark Reaper? Cause people have been saying that isn't the case.

On that note then, if it's not common defense practice...but then we see in the Kotor timeline that Dark Jedi/Sith can use Force Drain....that brings up how Jedi could even fight them?

Vader's Legacy wrote:Bane did channel that fire storm that was stated planetary by like 9 sources

On Ruusan?

THAT one was actually a ritual involving multiple Sith (SOURCED from the Sith holocron of Darth Revan). Darth Bane could not pull it off by himself.

Zenwolf wrote:Wait now I'm confused, so this technique that Ulic knew can work on resisting Force Drain from Force Users and not just the Dark Reaper? Cause people have been saying that isn't the case.

On that note then, if it's not common defense practice...but then we see in the Kotor timeline that Dark Jedi/Sith can use Force Drain....that brings up how Jedi could even fight them?

@Zenwolf

I think you are confusing Life Drain with Force Drain. Life Drain is a technique that can be learned by any Sith and is the one you see most of the time. Force Drain is a special kind of drain that devours Force energies and this isn't a technique that can be taught. Its effects have to be experienced first-hand.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

Vader's Legacy wrote:Bane did channel that fire storm that was stated planetary by like 9 sources

On Ruusan?

THAT one was actually a ritual involving multiple Sith (SOURCED from the Sith holocron of Darth Revan). Darth Bane could not pull it off by himself.

Yeah and then in DoE and ROT he claims he's "more powerful than ever before"

Vader's Legacy wrote:

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

Vader's Legacy wrote:Bane did channel that fire storm that was stated planetary by like 9 sources

On Ruusan?

THAT one was actually a ritual involving multiple Sith (SOURCED from the Sith holocron of Darth Revan). Darth Bane could not pull it off by himself.

Yeah and then in DoE and ROT he claims he's "more powerful than ever before"

That is correct but Darth Bane could not replicate that RITUAL on his own. There is no another instance of it.

Darth Nihilus wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:Wait now I'm confused, so this technique that Ulic knew can work on resisting Force Drain from Force Users and not just the Dark Reaper? Cause people have been saying that isn't the case.

On that note then, if it's not common defense practice...but then we see in the Kotor timeline that Dark Jedi/Sith can use Force Drain....that brings up how Jedi could even fight them?

@Zenwolf

I think you are confusing Life Drain with Force Drain. Life Drain is a technique that can be learned by any Sith and is the one you see most of the time. Force Drain is a special kind of drain that devours Force energies and this isn't a technique that can be taught. Its effects have to be experienced first-hand.

I'm not seeing anything about Life Drain being a technique, it's just Force Drain. It's probably just a different wording.

@Zenwolf

Life Drain is not Force Drain. Life Drain directly saps life energies and that's what causes the death. Force Drain directly saps Force energies (which causes the death) and can then sustain the user's life energies. It does not directly sap life energies like Life Drain and attacks differently ; by sapping Force energies. Force Drain cannot be taught and its effects have to be experienced first-hand unlike Life Drain which can be taught to anyone.


Drain life: A delicate procedure that saps the life energy of another and funnels it directly into your own essence. It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan.

-Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

[Force Drain]

"As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."

- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

These Sith we face... they have learned how to do this. It is a technique that has been lost for some time, not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other Force Sensitives - and at the highest pinnacle of power, use it to consume anything that lives. They draw upon the connections in the Force, and devour it.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force . . . Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger."

-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords


"Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


"Darth Nihilus was known as the Lord of Hunger and was noted for his ability to literally consume the Force energy of his victims, which was used to sustain his own life energies. It was rumored that he could consume the Force energy of an entire planet.

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Nor would Nihilus tolerate such a rival and competitor for his sustenance. Given the Sith Lord's unique background, it is not the type of ability that would be taught to an apprentice."

―Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition

Luke, Nyax, and Sidious are the only ones who could beat Valkorion, barring entities like the Ones and Abeloth.

Darth Nihilus wrote:@Zenwolf

Life Drain is not Force Drain. Life Drain directly saps life energies and that's what causes the death. Force Drain directly saps Force energies (which causes the death) and can then sustain the user's life energies. It does not directly sap life energies like Life Drain and attacks differently ; by sapping Force energies. Force Drain cannot be taught and its effects have to be experienced first-hand unlike Life Drain which can be taught to anyone.


Drain life: A delicate procedure that saps the life energy of another and funnels it directly into your own essence. It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan.

-Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

[Force Drain]

"As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."

- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

These Sith we face... they have learned how to do this. It is a technique that has been lost for some time, not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other Force Sensitives - and at the highest pinnacle of power, use it to consume anything that lives. They draw upon the connections in the Force, and devour it.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force . . . Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger."

-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords


"Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


"Darth Nihilus was known as the Lord of Hunger and was noted for his ability to literally consume the Force energy of his victims, which was used to sustain his own life energies. It was rumored that he could consume the Force energy of an entire planet.

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Nor would Nihilus tolerate such a rival and competitor for his sustenance. Given the Sith Lord's unique background, it is not the type of ability that would be taught to an apprentice."

―Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition

Um...a few of those quotes completely go against what it said in the others. The Sith Assassins hunt feed on The Force and devour it...sounds like Force Drain to me.

From what I'm gathering of these quotes, it seems like specifically for Nihilus due to his background, that his level of Force Drain can't be taught. Not that the technique itself can't, plus how can Traya teach Nihilus more about a technique if she doesn't even know it? That and Sion also seems to know it, plus Wookieepedia is generally good at the least of making sure there's different pages for Force Powers.

Life Drain doesn't seem to show up at all, when you try and search that, it just comes up as Force Drain. So it seems to me, that Nihilus' Force Drain can't be learned which makes sense as his Force Drain ability is so powerful, it can consume worlds.

Zenwolf wrote:Wait now I'm confused, so this technique that Ulic knew can work on resisting Force Drain from Force Users and not just the Dark Reaper? Cause people have been saying that isn't the case.

On that note then, if it's not common defense practice...but then we see in the Kotor timeline that Dark Jedi/Sith can use Force Drain....that brings up how Jedi could even fight them?

DISCLAIMER: Valkorion's original name is Tenebrae. After abandoning the Sith, he is identified as Vitiate on Ziost.

The Dark Reaper was an arcane machine designed to call upon the dark side of the Force to rip the life essence from a large number of living beings in one go (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side). It was tested on an army of the Republic in Raxus Prime, leaving hundreds of troops dead in its wake (SWTOR: Codex Entry: Galactic History 57: The Brotherhood's Power Grows). Therefore, its Drain Life Essence effects were severe to the extent that it killed its subjects.

Drain Life Essence effects produced by a Force-user are mild in comparison; to sap the life essence from subjects over an extended period of time (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side); Tenebrae made extensive use of this application on numerous subjects from time-to-time (Revan; numerous enemies imprisoned in the Dark Temple from time-to-time; the Hand). A derivative of this application allow feeding on each instance of death in the surroundings (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side); Tenebrae made extensive use of this application on Ziost; Palpatine made extensive use of this application on Byss. Drain Life Essence is extremely difficult to employ in combat however (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side). This might explain why this application is/was an uncommon consideration for combat situations.

Tenebrae was able to subject his enemies to the aforementioned application however (Revan; numerous enemies imprisoned in the Dark Temple from time-to-time); Darth Krayt could also do this as apparent from his fight with Abeloth alongside Luke Skywalker. Revan survived by circumventing through the Force ghost of Meetra Surik.

Nevertheless, the Dark Reaper could do what many a Force-user could not.

If a defensive application proved effective against the effects of the Dark Reaper even for a limited duration, it should work against similar effects produced by a Force-user. This is assuming Drain Life Essence and its derivatives.

Tenebrae was a remarkably gifted and talented Force-user by any measure. Force-sever application came naturally to him when he was just a child (FATE of Lord Dramath serve as a reminder that even a powerful Force-user was vulnerable); Tenebrae was very likely to get better in use of this application over time, and he was also the experimenting type. Tenebrae discovered Zildrog on his homeworld Medriaas at some point, and tinkered with it. Zildrog specialized in transfer of life energies to its operator (SWTOR: Codex Entry: Zildrog), and Tenebrae would have learned as much from it. However, there was much more to Zildrog than this aspect; it could be used to consume an entire world, to the extent of stripping it from the Force itself - all in one go. Enter Drain Force. Power of this magnitude would prove FATAL not just to the operator but to the world at large, but Tenebrae would take his chances one day. Enter Sith Sorcery. While other Sith were busy conspiring against each other (politics), and some were preparing for war with the Republic (agenda of Naga Sadow), Tenebrae dedicated himself to exploring the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side. Tenebrae had one goal in mind; IMMORTALITY which he would make possible via Sith Sorcery while putting Zildrog to good use. Towards this end, he devised a terrifying RITUAL, and also decided to eliminate all manner of competition in a masterstroke.

THAT day would come by the end of the Great Hyperspace War when Tenebrae called upon all surviving Lords of the Sith to join him on his homeworld (OR die at the hands of Jedi). Naga Sadow and many others were presumed to be dead by now. Therefore, this was the time for someone else to prove his mettle and a new leader shall be selected:

Lord Vitiate returned to his homeworld while rest of the Sith Empire waged the Great Hyperspace War against the Republic. When the hasty Sith offensive ended in failure, the Empire collapsed - but Lord Vitiate was stronger than ever. He bid every surviving Sith to unite or die at the hands of Jedi. Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Given the demonstration of power of such magnitude, remainder of the ancient Sith Empire rallied under Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) and all disappeared into the Unknown Regions for decades until they found in Dromund Kaas a suitable world to reconstitute the Empire (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia); scores of Sith became master(s) of the dark side of the Force and devised new powers, in time (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia).

Tenebrae's agenda was to create a Sith Empire which would be stronger and better organized than ever before, with advancements in all aspects of life but in absolute secrecy - an agenda he certainly accomplished (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia). During the Great Galactic War, the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire almost shattered a well-prepared Republic and the Jedi Order but Revan the Mary Sue convinced Tenebrae to make peace with the Republic instead (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia), making it possible for the Jedi Order to recover from a major blow received in the Sacking of Coruscant and they regrouped on Tython afterwards.

Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) lost much of his powerbase in the NEXT CHAPTER of the Great Galactic War however (Star Wars: The Old Republic: the Jedi Knight story arc and the Jedi Consular story arc in combination), and the Sith also attempted to undermine him (Star Wars: The Old Republic: the Sith Warrior story arc; Lord Scourge - the former Emperor's Wrath). Tenebrae escaped to YAVIN 4 in the form of an intangible presence to recuperate from a series of setbacks he had suffered earlier. Thanks in part to a crazy incarnation of Revan (a reanimated corpse to be exact) - who brought WAR to YAVIN 4, Tenebrae made extensive use of Drain Life Essence application once again to feed on each instance of death in his surroundings and reawakened consequently - he was now strong enough to escape from YAVIN 4 and teleported to ZIOST in an exceedingly violent manifestation of power, killing many more in the process (Fold Space implied).

Tenebrae decided to abandon the Sith however, and give a demonstration of what he could do - to both Jedi and Sith respectively. Since Tenebrae had experienced the effects beforehand:

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." - Darth Traya

- when he regained much of his strength on Ziost, he decided to consume the world itself - an ACE up his sleeve. Enter Drain Force.

"Saresh finally saw reason before things got too bad, got a bunch of our troops out of there--still, we lost so many, never mind the rest of Ziost...." - Theron Shan

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

+

"It was a blur. We tried to evacuate as many as we could. Considering so much was out of control, I'd say we did alright...

...but Vitiate is stronger now. Sith Intelligence is in complete disarray. It's all coming apart." - Lana Beniko

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

+

Meanwhile, an older threat still looms: the former SITH EMPEROR, revitalized after annihilating all life on the planet Ziost, has similarly vanished without a trace.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire: Epilogue: Chapter 1

And it is strongly implied that no living being could endure that kind of power - sheer numbers would be irrelevant as well.

Luke Skywalker in his prime, would have been utterly obliterated by an explosion of RAW dark side energy of a world compressed into a single subject when released, but Luke evaded the TRAP set by Abeloth and was able to escape in time along with many Jedi although some were not as fortunate. Related information in the following: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t627p50-exar-kun-vs-novel-vitiate

The CORROSIVE dark side energy such as that of Drain Force - when taken to its zenith - is capable of utterly consuming ALL caught in its shroud and also the world at large by extension in a span of under a minute; FAR MORE DEADLY application in comparison to any other.

In fact, an application of relatively insignificant magnitude and potency could undermine even the mighty Abeloth (courtesy of Darth Krayt), the most powerful application of Drain Force would be sufficient to finish her off all by itself if she were to be on the receiving end of one:

Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Sith Emperor: Codex Entry titled "Death of a World."

Use of word but indicate following:

"used to introduce a phrase or clause contrasting with what has already been mentioned." - GOOGLE

"used to introduce an added statement, usually something that is different from what you have said before." - Cambridge English Dictionary (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/but)

---

Darth Traya did WARN that there are techniques against which conventional defensive applications do not work, and only method is to MASK your Force-signature in order to avoid drawing attention. She was alluding to Darth Nihilus in these statements.

However, THAT does not suggest that only Darth Nihilus was potent in the use of Drain Force - others could also rival him, in time. For instance, Darth Traya WARNED that Revan's elite group of Sith Assassins could become much capable in the use of Drain Force, in time; therefore, these Force-users should be WIPED OUT for good before they turn into a significant threat as well - a task in which Meetra Surik played a significant role while being a Wound in the Force:

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force… what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they—and their techniques—must be wiped out." - Darth Traya

Jedi were not able to counter these Force-users; many perished by their hand, and Darth Nihilus killed hundreds on his own including the legendary Jedi Master Vandar Tokare (Yoda species).

---

I am surprised as to why some people continue to put Tenebrae (Vitiate; Valkorion) below a few Jedi and Sith. Talk about lack of comprehension. BioWare is not wrong in promoting and asserting that Tenebrae [is] the most powerful Force-user ever. Both LucasFilm and LucasArts allowed BioWare to promote Tenebrae in this manner.

BioWare is completely aware of all manner of developments in Star Wars.

Tenebrae's own miscalculation undermined him in the end; this much becomes apparent through the course of events in the Knights of the Fallen Empire and the Knights of the Eternal Throne expansion sets in combination. This is the point all along - no matter how strong you become, just one miscalculation can be your undoing - which is inevitable. Tenebrae alienated his own family - this was his miscalculation. When the time came to hollow out The Outlander, Tenebrae's own artifacts (sourced from NATHEMA) and family stood in his way and he lost much of his power in the exchange once again, and was banished into the Void for good. Even in his implied death, he produced a significant effect however - this will be made apparent in one of the upcoming expansion sets of the overarching SWTOR project.

Darth Nihilus also FELL because of his own miscalculation; when he attempted to consume Meetra while she was a Wound in the Force. This was the end of him.

Darth Nihilus perished; Tenebrae perished; The Ones perished; Abeloth perished. All would perish.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:Wait now I'm confused, so this technique that Ulic knew can work on resisting Force Drain from Force Users and not just the Dark Reaper? Cause people have been saying that isn't the case.

On that note then, if it's not common defense practice...but then we see in the Kotor timeline that Dark Jedi/Sith can use Force Drain....that brings up how Jedi could even fight them?

The Dark Reaper was an arcane machine designed to call upon the dark side of the Force to rip the life essence from a large number of living beings in one go (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side). It was tested on an army of the Republic in Raxus Prime, leaving hundreds of troops dead in its wake (SWTOR: Codex Entry: Galactic History 57: The Brotherhood's Power Grows). Therefore, its Drain Life Essence effects were severe to the extent that it killed its subjects.

Drain Life Essence effects produced by a Force-user are mild in comparison; to sap the life essence from subjects over an extended period of time (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side); Tenebrae made extensive use of this application on numerous subjects from time-to-time. A derivative of this application allow feeding on each instance of death in the surroundings (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side); Tenebrae made extensive use of this application on Ziost; Palpatine made extensive use of this application on Byss. Drain Life Essence is extremely difficult to employ in combat however (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side). This might explain why this application is/was an uncommon consideration for combat situations.

Tenebrae was able to subject his enemies to the aforementioned application however (Revan; numerous enemies imprisoned in the Dark Temple); Tenebrae and Darth Krayt could do this.

Nevertheless, the Dark Reaper could do what many a Force-user could not.

If a defensive application proved effective against the effects of the Dark Reaper even for a limited duration, it should work against similar effects produced by a Force-user. This is assuming Drain Life Essence and its derivatives.

Tenebrae was a remarkably gifted and talented Force-user by any measure. Force-sever application came naturally to him when he was just a child (FATE of Lord Dramath serve as a reminder that even a powerful Force-user was vulnerable); Tenebrae was very likely to get better in use of this application over time, and he was also the experimenting type. Tenebrae discovered Zildrog on his homeworld Medriaas at some point, and tinkered with it. Zildrog specialized in transfer of life energies to its operator (SWTOR: Codex Entry: Zildrog), and Tenebrae would have learned as much from it. However, there was much more to Zildrog than this aspect; it could be used to consume an entire world, to the extent of stripping it from the Force itself - all in one go. Enter Drain Force. Power of this magnitude would prove FATAL not just to the operator but to the world at large, but Tenebrae would take his chances one day. Enter Sith Sorcery. While other Sith were busy conspiring against each other (politics), and some were preparing for war with the Republic (agenda of Naga Sadow), Tenebrae dedicated himself to exploring the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side. Tenebrae had one goal in mind; IMMORTALITY which he would make possible via Sith Sorcery while putting Zildrog to good use. Towards this end, he devised a terrifying RITUAL, and also decided to eliminate all manner of competition in a masterstroke.

THAT day would come by the end of the Great Hyperspace War when Tenebrae called upon all surviving Lords of the Sith to join him on his homeworld (OR die at the hands of Jedi). Naga Sadow and many others were presumed to be dead by now. Therefore, this was the time for someone else to prove his mettle and a new leader be selected:

Lord Vitiate returned to his homeworld while rest of the Sith Empire waged the Great Hyperspace War against the Republic. When the hasty Sith offensive ended in failure, the Empire collapsed - but Lord Vitiate was stronger than ever. He bid every surviving Sith to unite or die at the hands of Jedi. Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Given the demonstration of power of such magnitude, remainder of the ancient Sith Empire rallied under Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) and all disappeared into the Unknown Regions for decades until they found in Dromund Kaas a suitable world to reconstitute the Empire (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia); scores of Sith became master(s) of the dark side of the Force and devised new powers in time (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia).

Tenebrae's agenda was to create a Sith Empire which would be stronger and better organized than ever before with advancements in all aspects of life but in absolute secrecy - an agenda he certainly accomplished. During the Great Galactic War, the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire almost shattered a well-prepared Republic and the Jedi Order but Revan the Mary Sue convinced Tenebrae to let it all go.

Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) lost much of his powerbase in the next chapter of the Great Galactic War however (Star Wars: The Old Republic), and he escaped to YAVIN 4 in the form of an intangible presence to recuperate. Thanks in part to Revan who brought WAR to YAVIN 4, Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) made extensive use of Drain Life Essence application once again to feed on each instance of death in his surroundings and reawakened.

Tenebrae decided to abandon the Sith however, and show them what he could do. Since Tenebrae had experienced the effects beforehand:

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." - Darth Traya

- when he regained much of his strength on Ziost, he decided to consume the world itself - an ACE up his sleeve. Enter Drain Force again.

"Saresh finally saw reason before things got too bad, got a bunch of our troops out of there--still, we lost so many, never mind the rest of Ziost...." - Theron Shan

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

+

"It was a blur. We tried to evacuate as many as we could. Considering so much was out of control, I'd say we did alright...

...but Vitiate is stronger now. Sith Intelligence is in complete disarray. It's all coming apart." - Lana Beniko

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

+

Meanwhile, an older threat still looms: the former SITH EMPEROR, revitalized after annihilating all life on the planet Ziost, has similarly vanished without a trace.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire: Epilogue: Chapter 1

And it is strongly implied that no living being could endure that kind of power.

Luke Skywalker in his prime, would have been utterly obliterated by an explosion of energy of lesser intensity (raw energy of the dark side to make it clear; not corrosive energy such as that of Drain Force which would have utterly consumed all caught in its shroud) but he evaded the TRAP set by Abeloth and was able to escape in time along with many Jedi although some were not as fortunate. Related information in the following: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t627p50-exar-kun-vs-novel-vitiate

In fact, an application of relatively insignificant magnitude and potency could undermine even the mighty Abeloth (courtesy of Darth Krayt), the most powerful application of Drain Force would be sufficient to finish her off for good if she were to on the receiving end of it:

Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Sith Emperor: Codex Entry titled "Death of a World."

Use of word but indicate following:

"used to introduce a phrase or clause contrasting with what has already been mentioned." - GOOGLE

"used to introduce an added statement, usually something that is different from what you have said before." - Cambridge English Dictionary (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/but)

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Darth Traya did WARN that there are techniques against which conventional defensive applications do not work, and only method is to MASK your Force-signature in order to avoid drawing attention. She was alluding to Darth Nihilus in these statements.

However, THAT does not suggest that only Darth Nihilus was potent in the use of Drain Force - others could also rival him in time. For instance, Darth Traya WARNED that Revan's elite group of Sith Assassins could become much capable in use of Drain Force in time; therefore, these Force-users should be WIPED OUT for good before they turn into a significant threat as well - a task in which Meetra Surik played a significant role while being a Wound in the Force.

Jedi were not able to counter these Force-users; many perished by their hand, and Darth Nihilus killed hundreds on his own including the legendary Jedi Master Vandare Tokare (Yoda species).

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I am surprised as to why some people continue to put Tenebrae (Valkorion) below a few Jedi and Sith. Talk about lack of comprehension. BioWare is not wrong in promoting and asserting that Tenebrae [is] the most powerful Force-user ever.

BioWare is completely aware of all manner of developments in Star Wars.

Tenebrae's own miscalculation undermined him in the end; this much becomes apparent through the course of events in the Knights of the Fallen Empire and Knights of the Eternal Throne expansion sets in combination. This is the point all along - no matter how strong you become, just one miscalculation can be your undoing. Tenebrae alienated his own family - this was his miscalculation. When the time came to hollow out The Outlander, Tenebrae's own artifacts (sourced from NATHEMA) and family stood in his way and he lost much of his power in the exchange once again, and was banished into the Void for good. Even in his implied death, he produced a significant effect however - this will be made apparent in one of the upcoming expansion sets of the overarching SWTOR project.

Darth Nihilus also FELL because of his own miscalculation; when he attempted to consume Meetra while she was a Wound in the Force. This was the end of him.

@S_W_LeGenD

I should also note that there is another way to defend against Force Drain (other than masking) and that is Ulic's technique. However, the scale to which it can be adopted to is in question. We have only seen it work on the Reaper for a short period of time and while keeping a certain distance from it. The Reaper's drain in itself was weaker than draining planets (both of which Nihilus and Tenebrae can adopt). So there has never been shown (As to my knowledge) that Force drain as potent and powerful as Nihilus and Tenebrae's can be resisted. It's also interesting to note that Krayt's drain was very effective against Abeloth (someone 12 times more powerful than Luke). So it really shows that even someone very powerful may be undermined and fall to Drain. On top of that, Krayt's drain is also much weaker than the ones displayed by Nihilus and Tenebrae.

^^^

Ulic's technique was effective against Drain Life Essence (and its derivatives) - for a limited duration; I was alluding to this technique actually. Sound observation nevertheless.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:^^^

Ulic's technique was effective against Drain Life Essence (and its derivatives); I was alluding to this technique actually. Sound observation nevertheless.

@S_W_LeGenD

I actually think the Dark Reaper is much more alluded to Force Drain than Drain Life. It is specifically said to absorb 'Force energy' which is in direct relation to how Nihilus consumes Force energies. It's also said "the harvester absorbs the Force from every living thing in its range".
That seems a lot more like Force Drain I think.

Darth Nihilus wrote:

S_W_LeGenD wrote:^^^

Ulic's technique was effective against Drain Life Essence (and its derivatives); I was alluding to this technique actually. Sound observation nevertheless.

@S_W_LeGenD

I actually think the Dark Reaper is much more alluded to Force Drain than Drain Life. It is specifically said to absorb 'Force energy' which is in direct relation to how Nihilus consumes Force energies. It's also said "the harvester absorbs the Force from every living thing in its range".
That seems a lot more like Force Drain I think.

Well, I checked two sources and each suggest Drain Life Essence - more like an EXTRAPOLATION of it which proved FATAL to the subjects.

You may that the Dark Reaper produced something of an intermediate between Drain Life Essence an Drain Force - elements of both if you will.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

Darth Nihilus wrote:

S_W_LeGenD wrote:^^^

Ulic's technique was effective against Drain Life Essence (and its derivatives); I was alluding to this technique actually. Sound observation nevertheless.

@S_W_LeGenD

I actually think the Dark Reaper is much more alluded to Force Drain than Drain Life. It is specifically said to absorb 'Force energy' which is in direct relation to how Nihilus consumes Force energies. It's also said "the harvester absorbs the Force from every living thing in its range".
That seems a lot more like Force Drain I think.

Well, I checked two sources and each suggest Drain Life Essence - more like an EXTRAPOLATION of it which proved FATAL to the subjects.

You may that the Dark Reaper produced something of an intermediate between Drain Life Essence an Drain Force - elements of both if you will.

I have heard that before I think. It may actually be a combination of both in some sort.

^^^

More or less.

Editing my previous post:

Sidious, Nyax, Luke, full potential Outlander, maybe full potential Vaylin (depends if you consider being a threat to Valk to being equivalent to being a near-equal). Obvious examples include the Bedlam Spirits, the Celestials, and the Ones.

Anyone Jinn level upwards can wreck him in saber skill, but only the extremely powerful Force users in Legends can get close enough to do so, or just beat him in the Force.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

Vaelias wrote:because he has more abilities that he can use on the spot vitiate needs to perform a ritual or have an external power source for virtually everything bane is a far better duelist hes faster and has better lightning

Dude, check my blog before commenting on this topic. Ritual THEORY is "nonsense."

There are so many ways to establish that Darth Bane have nothing on Valkorion really - the former will be ONE-SHOTTED.

Duelist you say?



Arcann was a very fine duelist by any measure - among the greatest ever.

What happens next?



That is called ONE-SHOT.

Please keep in mind the fact that Arcann had superior defenses than any Jedi Master including Revan (Reborn).

Arcann is also Valkorion's own SON - he had unique talents and powers not seen in any Jedi and Sith.

the thing with that though is that arcann is nowhere near the power of bane nor as fast, bane was probably the second fastest sith in galactic history just after sidious vitiate does have insane lightning and tutaminus but hes nowhere near fast enough to deflect any attacks from bane using this method, i personally thing vitiate is slightly stronger than bane but i honestly think bane could win as he has all the right counters to any attack from vitiate. the ritual thing is just true he needed a ritual for literally so many things he achieved if it wasnt a ritual it was an external power source of some sort he is almost always amped by a force nexus so i doubt he could display such power on the spot anywhere else