ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

The G Canon Purist wrote:BoD and I gonna roll back into this thread like:

freethedevil wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

freethedevil wrote:Interesting. Still, wouldn't it be retconned by TCW? TCW was part of the old eu, no?

Regardless, for all using the fight, this still applies:

Secondly, the only reason the duel even happened is because the priestesses dared him to not use the force. Said priestesses said, "you could destroy us all with the force." That includes Maul.

Fodder still gets his neck snapped 

Sorry for the late reply. No, not really. I don't know what you mean by old EU, if you mean Legends continuity, yes because TCW S1-S5. it's pre-2014 tie in material and SoD comics fall under that continuity because it was T canon and C canon. The only thing that TCW has retconned is the premise that Maul died in TPM, Resurrection's depiction of how these versions of Maul and Vader compare hasn't been retconned

If the premise has been retconned, then, by extension, everything built on said premise has been retconned. That's how premises work. Intent means jackshit if the material created with said intent didn't really happen. 

Thanks George!

You are wrong, I'd say that in that specific quote, Lucas defines real Jedi as those who are a faster and more energetic version of the old people (Ben Kenobi), half droids (Vader) and young boys who learned from these old people.

The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action

George, in 2019, says that we didn't see any "real Jedi in action" in the OT, "except for Obi-Wan" meaning that Ben Kenobi is a real Jedi, though

This is an incredible exaggeration

Maul and Vader's fight in the Resurrection story indicates that Maul is the better swordsman, but not that he is a "IS that much better than Vader," Maul lands 5 hits in a fight that went on for at least 15 pages, and which is incredibly lengthy because comic fights are usually really condensed due to the limitations of the medium, but this one spanned out for over a dozen pages. 

In fact where you're wrong is that Vader DOES land something back in return - he blocks Maul's kick and proceeds to slicing Maul's saberstaff in two, something that Qui-Gon did not achieve.

Granted, TPM Obi-Wan achieved also achieved this, but that only occured because Obi-Wan was fuelled by a tremendous rage boost over seeing his surrogate father (which the Dark Side Sourcebook says gave Kenobi "renewed strength") 

That’s actually not what he says. He says we never seen real Jedi in action and in the same clause he describes the OT squad as old crippled and green. He doesn’t define real Jedi as faster and more energetic in the same clause he describes them as ****. So no I am not wrong. 

In IV, V and VI you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action

Just how restrictive was that costume?
He couldn’t move at all, really. We had to keep modifying the suit so people could move in it. By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. 

Thank you for reinforcing my point with confirmation 20 years later Lucas still holds to the in universe position the OT warriors are **** compared to their PT contemporaries.  We didn’t see any real Jedi in action until episode I which includes Ben whom we saw in action. 

-

This also debunks the whole Filini argument. Even if Filini thought Lucas had Maul and Vader close Lucas actual statements written in the same time frame overrules him.

I wanted to come up with an apprentice for the Emperor who was striking and tough. We hadn’t seen a Sith Lord before, except for Vader, of course. I wanted to convey the idea that Jedi are all very powerful, but they’re also vulnerable — which is why I wanted to kill Qui-Gon. That is to say, “Hey, these guys aren’t Superman.” These guys are people who are vulnerable, just like every other person.

With Episode I, I didn’t want to tell a limited story. I had to go into the politics and the bigger issues of the Republic and that sort of thing. I had to go into bigger issues. And in order to do that, I had to come up with a way of doing it, and that’s what digital technology brought me. I had Yoda but he couldn’t fight. I had cities, but I couldn’t build models that big. I had lots and lots of costumes, but I couldn’t afford to make them. So there were a lot of issues that were just practical — Episode I wasn’t doable for a long time, so I waited until we had the technology to do it.

But anyway, there’s a whole matrix of backstory that has never really come out. It’s really just history that I gathered up along the way. So it seemed natural that when I had the technology to actually make the film – for example, I could finally have Yoda be the warrior he was meant to be — then I would move forward to thinking about how I could make that a movie. Because I had all the backstory, I had basically the three scripts. Or at least the material that was in the three scripts. Then it’s just a matter of doing the details.

Ah no. He says we’ve never seen real Jedi in action then in a completely separate clause he starts a new subject saying the other question he figured the audience wanted to know was where the other Jedi were. Obviously he wasn’t being literal when he said Ben wasn’t a real Jedi, he still is one by trade, obviously by “real Jedi “ he meant on in his prime not a pensioner. You’re trying to combine the two separate clauses and pass them off as one complete sentence when really they are two completely separate subjects. If Ben was a real Jedi Lucas wouldn’t have said we haven’t seen real Jedi or stress that’s what audiences wanted to see.

The time passage between panels can be as little as a few seconds or a few hours. 

Putting Maul on the back foot is more impressive even if Jinn had to go for broke to achieve it.

 It’s not like cutting the staff did anything damage or hindering other than make Maul angry.

Yep he fought with reckless abandonment according to the novel a source I place more credit in than one of the many rogue secondary sourcebooks . An emotional Kenobi fighting with everything he had fought as a near equal. 

An emotional Kenobi with the same advantages as Vader fought Maul as a near equal.

A Vader with the same emotional wellspring to draw upon 

and kamikaze mindset

was thoroughly dominated.

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freethedevil wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

freethedevil wrote:Interesting. Still, wouldn't it be retconned by TCW? TCW was part of the old eu, no?

Regardless, for all using the fight, this still applies:

Secondly, the only reason the duel even happened is because the priestesses dared him to not use the force. Said priestesses said, "you could destroy us all with the force." That includes Maul.

Fodder still gets his neck snapped 

Sorry for the late reply. No, not really. I don't know what you mean by old EU, if you mean Legends continuity, yes because TCW S1-S5. it's pre-2014 tie in material and SoD comics fall under that continuity because it was T canon and C canon. The only thing that TCW has retconned is the premise that Maul died in TPM, Resurrection's depiction of how these versions of Maul and Vader compare hasn't been retconned

If the premise has been retconned, then, by extension, everything built on said premise has been retconned. That's how premises work. Intent means jackshit if the material created with said intent didn't really happen. 

By any chance are you Kilius on CV?

Feel free to quantify that, then. They move from the bottom of the staircase, halfway along a bridge (following a blade lock and multiple saber strikes each), they then drop to the river below, jump across and fight each other, Maul leads Vader away, they jump along for a bit, carry on fighting, then we cut to the Prophets, then back to the fight...and so on. That's a fight that lasts at least several minutes, during which Maul lands five blows. 

What do you call dodging someone's strike, forcing them back then severing their saberstaff in half, then? 

By that logic, Maul's hits should be discounted because only two actually did anything to Vader, and that just reinforces the idea of a level of parity between the two that Maul has a slight edge in due to his agility and weapon, per the author: 

So I'll just copy and paste what I sent to him:

Not seeing the "near equal" bit. The best Kenobi does is cut Maul's lightsaber in half when he catches Maul off guard with his rage amp. Maul then adjusts and is noted to be "clearly" more powerful, even with Kenobi's edge. 

I must have missed the part where Vader's father figure was impaled like a cheap kebab right in front of him.

 tags Vader twice in the opening stages when Vader is unused to fighting a challenging opponent (since he hasn't in around 2 years). Both times he uses his saberstaff - a weapon Vader is unaccustomed to combating - to do so. Both times the hits did absolutely nothing.
Maul even comments that Vader is holding his own, and switches the territory to gain any noticeable edge:

Vader also overpowers Maul in a blade lock and forces him back:

Then there’s the prophets 

...where the author states that Maul's edge was because of his agility and staff against a Vader who, again, hasn't fought a worthy opponent for years and is constantly put at a disadvantage by the changing environment, and it's pretty clear it's Maul's agility and weapon that gave him the edge. Note that the same author also said that it's possible that ANH Vader could kill Maul and the Prophets with the Force.

So to clarify: Maul lands several hits on a Vader who hasn't fought a skilled combatant in years through the use of a saberstaff (that Vader clearly struggles to counter) and agility. Vader pushes Maul back, is noted to be standing his ground against Maul on level footing, drives Maul back and slices his saberstaff in half...yet Maul is considerably more skilled.
Right.

Now, I note something different from Latham. He's already drawn attention to the lack of distinction between "real Jedi" and Ben, so I don't think I need to reaffirm that. Let's look again at a key part of the quote:

This is easily explained, and you can find some explanation for it from an out-of-universe perspective:


In the original script, Lucas had Ben survive his Vader fight, being saved from death at the last minute. He also had Ben charging at and blitzing Stormtroopers, which is an interesting feat for someone apparently massively past their prime. Now: Why didn't this
happen?

Lucas decided that Ben - the only "real Jedi" left - served no purpose after that and needed to be killed off.

simple. Since Ben is dead, yeah: we haven't seen a real Jedi in action beyond a fight hindered by tech that made it so that Vader "couldn't move at all, really." Lucas confirms that Ben is a real Jedi but because he was killed off and only had one fight "you didn't really get to see real Jedi in action." This is not saying "Ben isn't a real Jedi and is sub the Prequels Jedi". It's saying Ben had to be killed off for the sake of storytelling, the consequences of which are that we never saw a Jedi in action.


Again, you simply can't compare ANH Vader with ESB Vader. There's an annoying tendency on this board to apply OOU reasoning to IU logic with zero thought for the explanations. In the case of Ben vs Vader, this is especially true. Lucas has repeatedly stated that ANH Vader is not what he wanted:

Lucas confirms that the "half-man, half-machine" and "old man" quotes only apply to ANH, going so far as to then call Vader and Luke real Jedi who "were supposed to be quite active" (note that this is after ROTS was released, which means he's talking overall).

Lucas' intent with Maul was to show what a Sith Lord is capable of, which he specifically ties back to Vader. He doesn't say for example "we hadn't seen a real Sith Lord." This hearkens back to his earlier complaints that ANH wasn't what he wanted to make, and it was the tech that limited him:

Please note that Lucas explicitly said the Originals were a "limited" story, meaning he had to compromise and thus abandon some ideas. It's also worth noting that Lucas explicitly notes that Yoda was always meant to be a warrior, for example:

Ben's age isn't the problem here. Lucas always intended for Yoda to be a warrior, but couldn't realise this. He wanted an active fight between Vader and Ben

 but couldn't. He outright retcons the "half-man, half-machine" quote to just apply to ANH, when tech was massively limited and they were already over budget. Lucas' response is pretty clear. I've already explained the "IV, V or VI" bit, but Lucas in this entire passage doesn't differentiate between "prime" Jedi and "pensioner" Jedi. If we go by the logic that elderly Jedi aren't "real" Jedi, then Dooku, Yoda, Sinube, Cin Drallig and countless other ageing Jedi weren't in their primes

The basis for the "old man" case for Ben proving he's < TPM Kenobi comes from conjecture, whereby a quote is taken, deprived of context (the technological limits that became less of an issue in V and VI, which Lucas clearly doesn't apply this to given his references to "but Jedi were supposed to be quite active" even with the hindsight of the Prequels) and then presented as an argument. 

That’s the point you can’t quantity it.

Several minutes is plausible. During which Maul is clearly the ring general.

I don’t see Maul being forced back in those scans unless you are referring to after the staff is cut. Again all this did was fluster Maul. It’s not equivalent to doing any damage or disarming him or even seizing the momentum. 

Jinns last hurrah is more impressive no matter how you look at it.

No marital strikes did damage Vader - he grunts in pain everytime Maul lands something -

and served to build up momentum. Cutting the staff didn’t do anything to Maul other than make him angry.

Plus the center of the staff is a known weak spot.

The landed martial and saber strikes at least serve to show who is the more skilled and capable warrior and how reliant Vader is on his durability.

The author doesn’t mention anything about the weapon being the edge only his mobility. He didn’t say anything about it being slight either. 

Sure I can buy the unfamiliarity of the staff being a factor. It’s a highly impractical weapon otherwise, as Kas’im says the fact that so few people use it and thus no experience in how to deal with it is what gives those who use it an advantage even if it is more limiting in practice.

Problem with that as an excuse though is that the same disadvantage applies to Jinn and Kenobi.

An don’t give me the BS about how every temple guard used a pike therefore all Jedi knows how to counter it.

Anakin lived in the temple for 10 years and he still found Ventress’s modular staff tricky and unfamiliar in the TCW JN. 

Your  sources don’t tell me anything I don’t already know. Maul is more skilled and more powerful. Got it.

The near equal bit comes from the novelization: “The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly.”

Kenobi initially caught Maul off guard with his wild assault: “The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi knights initial rush, caught off guard by the others wild assault and pressed all the way back to the far wall of the melting pit. “ After which Maul regains the offensive and takes the momentum: “Lunging and twisting Darth Maul regained the offensive and counterattacked” So any success Kenobi has after that point including his fighting evenly with Maul and cutting the staff and flooring his ass can’t be attributed to his catching Maul off guard who had long since adjusted to Kenobi’s frantic determination.

Yes Maul is still stronger but that doesn’t change the fact Kenobi fighting with everything he had fought legitimately as a near equal something

Vader with the same mindset couldn’t do.

Neither did Maul yet his emotional state was greater than Kenobi’s frantic determination: “But Maul was the stronger of the two driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan.”

It’s heavily implied in the comic Vader has an even stronger source of hate than Maul.

So yeah he had an equivalent to Kenobi

and performed worse. 

1. He makes even quicker work of Vader with Jar Kai a style he definitely has plenty of experience in dealing with Starkiller.

As with before the weapon factor applies to Jinn and Kenobi too.

The hits made him grunt in pain. He tanked them but he didn’t no sell them.

Switching territories to gain more of an advantage he already had, as was the case with the PT duo, is immaterial to the fact he was outfighting him and piercing his guard multiple times.

Scan 1 shows Maul and Vader engaged in a blade lock. Scan 2 shows Maul in a defensive crouch as Vader comes in with an overhead strike.

Not seeing where Maul is pushed back or overpowered.

More evenly matched than expected doesn’t make it evenly matched period especially if they had low expectations to begin with.

Through actions Maul is demonstrably Vader’s significant superior,

the prophets we’re still confident Maul would win.

1. Agility yes.

Staff, rust, and environment no. The author never says anything about that.

Maul was winning regardless of which environment

2. No the author said it was hypothetical and we really don’t know. 

1. Proves he’s more skilled

and reinforces the Lucas supremacy quote.

Rust and weapon choice is irrelevant

he was dominated up until the final stretch

with a different weapon

and any further rust at that point would apply to ANH Kenobi, the one TPM Kenobi is facing.

2.Never pushed Maul back clearly.

3. Yes he is. As the author says his durability is his main selling point. By feats Maul is more skilled and just plain better all around.

And he’s wrong there’s a distinction between “real Jedi” and just plain Jedi. He never used the phrase “real Jedi” to define Ben just plain Jedi . If he was a “real Jedi” then the first declaration of not having seen any real Jedi in the OT makes no sense. Reality is Lucas was talking about to different things: real Jedi in their prime and then where are all the other Jedi outside of Ben.

First of all there were only seven stormtroopers to contend with and they were harried by Han, Luke, and Leia.

I’d expect even the shell of Kenobi to deal with that much especially given the favorable circumstances.

Secondly he was floored by an explosion caused by a and needed Luke’s “struggling aid” to get to his feet. His age was definitely written to be shown.

This is hardly a more impressive showing relative to anything else he’s shown in the film.

Thirdly  Lucas never used the phrase real Jedi to define Ben.

Fourthly we did see him in action against Vader.

Yes limited tech is part of the out of universe explanation. Limited tech and resources are a common cause for the trope  known as “real life writes the plot.” Same situation as Planet of the apes,they originally wanted the setting to be a futuristic high tech ape society but because of budget constraints they settled for a primitive setting. In this case Lucas couldn’t get a high enough quality performance from his actors and settled for the in universe explanation the two are way past their best. That there is an unwanted out of universe explanation doesn’t make it mutually exclusive to the official in universe explanation provided.

Lucas never confirmed he was a real Jedi.

And we have seen him in action as an old man.

He made an implicit unfavorable comparison with Ben being old and everyone else in the TPM being prime. 

Well since ANH Vader is the one TPM Kenobi is fighting in this topic it hardly matters if ESB Vader improved.

It doesn’t matter if the portrayal isn’t what Lucas wanted. He still officially settled with the in universe explanation because he couldn’t convincingly portray real Jedi in his eyes .

Well good thing this is TPM Kenobi vs ANH Vader then.

Yep. Now if only base TPM Kenobi had held his own against TPM Maul and hadn't been horrendously amped. You might have had a point. 

Double checked the quote he calls them Jedi not “real Jedi”.

No t just means Luke and Vader ESB and beyond is superior to anyone in ANH something that is supported by C-Canon anyway. If Lucas felt the choreography from ESB\RotJ was up to snuff with his standards of what “real Jedi” is in his eyes he wouldn’t have said “we haven’t seen any real Jedi”

and if changed his mind he wouldn’t have restated his position 20 years later.

Except he didn't. 

As it stands Maul/Jinn/Kenobi > RotJ Luke/Vader > ESB Vader > ESB Luke > ANH Vader/Ben.

Nowhere in that quote does Lucas make a comparison of Maul with Vader. 

See above.

Yep but he couldn’t realize it to his satisfaction so he shoehorned in an in universe explanation to account for the out of universe deficiencies. 

No it still applies to the entire OT or else we would have seen real Jedi well before Episode I. 

It’s not one passage that was my point. Lucas makes a statement about us having not seen any real Jedi in action. Then he switches to a completely different subject when he says Ben is the only Jedi we’ve seen outside the many that must have existed. If Ben qualifies as a real Jedi then the previous statement is pointless. 

Lucas doesn’t say all elderly Jedi aren’t real Jedi only Ben and Vader. It may not have been his intent but in the end it is what he accepted and that’s the official in universe explanation.

As a side note I think you can make the argument a lot of those names weren’t prime or at least peak either with the obvious exception of Dooku who peaked overall as a Sith . It’s certainly the case with Yoda anyway.

Definitely not conjecture. Lucas outright says he’s not a real Jedi because he’s an old man and makes a direct favorable comparison of all warriors in TPM saying they’re prime and real Jedi. 

I’m aware of the context. Real world limitations wrote the plot. Lucas gives us both an in universe explanation AND an out of universe explanation. They’re mutually compatible.

ESB/RotJ is better in his eyes in terms of what he was looking for but ultimately not quite up to speck hence his TPM featurette statement and the reaffirmation of the same position 20 years later.

Your  sources don’t tell me anything I don’t already know. Maul is more skilled and more powerful. Got it.

You clearly don't. Maul is noticeably more skilled and more powerful, to the point that he's described in a couple as "invincible".

The near equal bit comes from the novelization: “The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly.” 

This is meaningless. A massively rage amped Kenobi:

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:Maul glared at Obi-Wan. He wondered how long the Jedi could cling to the nub. He knew Obi-Wan’s hands and arms would get tired eventually. Growing impatient. Maul swung his pared-down lightsaber against the metal edge of the core’s upper rim, sending sparks flying out over Obi-Wan’s head. Maul noted that his blade did not damage the metal and realized it was impervious to energy weapons. He wondered if the metal could be crafted into body armor.

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:

Obi-Wan flew up out of the core. Maul had forgotten about Qui-Gon Jinn’s lightsaber, which flew up from the floor near the fallen Jedi’s body and landed in the waiting hand of the still-airborne Obi-Wan. Maul rapidly transferred his lightsaber from his right hand to his left. Obi-Wan activated Qui-Gon’s lightsaber as he soared overhead and landed behind Maul. Maul spun fast, but not fast enough to stop Obi-Wan from swinging Qui-Gon’s blade through his midsection.

Manages to briefly push a surprised Maul back:

After, Maul and him then fight evenly

where Maul is noted to have far greater reserves

where Maul is noted to have far greater reserves despite having just fought a Qui-Gon refreshed from meditation and who surprised Maul by immediately going on the offensive with a refreshed Jinn 

It's fairly clear that despite your claims that they were "near equal

", Maul was demonstrably more skilled and more powerful than both, and had far greater reserves to draw upon. 

It wasn't just "everything he had". He was massively rage amped, and he was still not a near equal. Holding his own against Maul doesn't make him roughly equal, only reasonably close. Enough that Maul is still noted to be both more skilled and clearly more powerful than him.

 says Maul is stronger in that sentence. Maul's anger and other emotions that he draws upon when channelling the Force are stronger than a massively amped Kenobi's. Unless you're arguing Maul was amped more than usual, this is a redundant argument. 

Since you also like to point out how things are phrased differently, "and" is used as a coordinating conjunction meant to connect two things, e.g. "Maul was stronger and driven by a frenzy." It's saying that Maul is stronger and much more motivated, not that Maul is stronger because he's more motivated.

And he’s wrong there’s a distinction between “real Jedi” and just plain Jedi. He never used the phrase “real Jedi” to define Ben just plain Jedi . If he was a “real Jedi” then the first declaration of not having seen any real Jedi in the OT makes no sense. Reality is Lucas was talking about to different things: real Jedi in their prime and then where are all the other Jedi outside of Ben.

@BoD: He literally makes no distinction between "real Jedi" and "Jedi". They're synonymous.

@O-Siri: If they were synonymous he wouldn’t have said we hadn’t seen any real Jedi in IV,V, and VI and then use Kenobi as an example of a “real Jedi” even though we’ve seen him in action. “Real Jedi” = “prime” “full flowered” “well trained” “fighting as they were in the past” “faster more aggressive more sophisticated”.

@BoD: If he said "real Jedi" then "ageing Jedi", you'd have a point: but he didn't. He even treats there as being no distinction:The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action. To me, that was something that a lot of people would want to see. And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.

@O-Siri: Once again as I’ve already addressed. Two different subjects being addressed.

@BoD: He's literally saying I, II and III are showing us the "real Jedi" we only got glimpses of in IV. You're twisting Lucas' words to the absolute limit here.

@O-Siri: Where does Lucas say “we got glimpses of real Jedi in the OT?” You’re the one twisting words and inferring meaning that isn’t there. What he actually says is that we haven’t seen any real Jedi yet in action. Period. This isn’t an isolated case either. We have the TPM featurette and The Birth of a Lightsaber featurette as well. Couldn’t be any clearer Lucas views the PT warriors as the pinnacle and the OT version as the imitation.

First of all there were only seven stormtroopers to contend with and they were harried by Han, Luke, and Leia.

@BoD: Not seeing your point here. 

@O-Siri: Point is charging seven fodder with backup isn’t impressive for a Jedi.

I’d expect even the shell of Kenobi to deal with that much especially given the favorable circumstances.

@BoD: A rapidly tiring Kenobi who crossed 10-15 metres before they could shoot at him. You forgot to add that.

@O-Siri: So what? Jedi fight under adverse conditions  all the time. We’re talking about fodder here. This isn’t noteworthy  anyway you look at it. 

Secondly he was floored by an explosion caused by a and needed Luke’s “struggling aid” to get to his feet. His age was definitely written to be shown.

@BoD: No offence, but this is a stupid argument. Jedi aren't superhuman, they can be stunned and incapacitated by attacks and explosions. We have no scale for that blaster explosion since this is an early draft written without consideration to the technology available, but it's clearly considerable since it explodes "near him", "knocking him to the floor". 

@O-Siri: TPM Kenobi walked off being kicked down several stories no problem. AotC Kenobi tanked a blank point explosion from a rocket and got up like it was nothing. Compared to his PT counterpart this is a low showing. 

This is hardly a more impressive showing relative to anything else he’s shown in the film.

@BoD: Let me say this again: it's a film from 1976 with a character played by a 63 year old. Do you think that even with massively more advanced technology they were having 59 year old Ian Mcdiarmid performing the flips and acrobatics in ROTS? Guinness could barely run at his age. "Charging" across and blitzing several Stormtroopers (while drained) is clearly beyond what Guinness was capable of. 

@O-Siri: Again with the real world limitations. Doesn’t ****ing matter. Lucas went ahead and accepted it as the official explanation.

Thirdly  Lucas never used the phrase real Jedi to define Ben.

Please explain where Lucas differentiates between "real Jedi" and "Jedi" a line apart, where he was clearly not repeating it since it was already stated.

Fourthly we did see him in action against Vader.

@BoD: You really aren't understanding the "hitting the technological limit" problem with ANH as opposed to TPM, are you? 

@O-Siri: And you aren’t really understanding the whole real life limitations becoming an in universe explanation are you? 

Yes limited tech is part of the out of universe explanation. Limited tech and resources are a common cause for the trope  known as “real life writes the plot.” Same situation as Planet of the apes,they originally wanted the setting to be a futuristic high tech ape society but because of budget constraints they settled for a primitive setting. In this case Lucas couldn’t get a high enough quality performance from his actors and settled for the in universe explanation the two are way past their best. That there is an unwanted out of universe explanation doesn’t make it mutually exclusive to the official in universe explanation provided.

@BoD: Oh good, so you accept that the "half-man, half-machine" quote only applies to ANH as Lucas stated and reiterated. Wonderful. 

@O-Siri: No need to put words into my mouth. I’ve accepted real world limitations as the out of universe explanation for the in universe explanation. ESB/RotJ Vader < PT Jedi as per the Birth of a Lightsaber Featurette, TPM Featurette, and the recent statement.

Lucas never confirmed he was a real Jedi.

@BoD: I'll take Lucas' direct words where he clearly sees so point in making a distinction between the two over yours. If Lucas had intended to differentiate between the two, he would have said "except for Obi-Wan, who was an old man." He did not. Therefore, you have little more than conjecture and misinterpretations to claim that Lucas (somewhat bizarrely) makes some invisible distinction between "real Jedi" and "Jedi".

@O-Siri: Lucas says “we haven’t seen any real Jedi in action  in IV,V,and VI.” Ben Vader and Luke are in those movies and we see them in action. Conclusion Ben Vader  and Luke aren’t real Jedi.

And we have seen him in action as an old man.

@BoD: Irrelevant argument, given what's already been discussed. 

@O-Siri: Nope absolutely relevant. We see all the OT warriors in action. Lucas describes them from an in universe perspective: Vader is half droid not the double Davies Prowse; also worth pointing Vader is included in this “Real Jedi” definitely so no technicalities about Vader being a Sith. And the PT gives us the first glimpse of “real Jedi in action” in contrast to the old man half droid and fledgling boy.

He made an implicit unfavorable comparison with Ben being old and everyone else in the TPM being prime. 

@BoD: Already been addressed, analysed and corrected. Not repeating myself again.

@O-Siri: Inadequately addressed. Real life limitations doesn’t make it mutually exclusive to the provided in universe explanation. The fact Vader is seen as improving is irrelevant to the fact he is still seen as inferior to “real Jedi” in the PT as per the above statement and the birth of a lightsaber featurette.

Well since ANH Vader is the one TPM Kenobi is fighting in this topic it hardly matters if ESB Vader improved.

@BoD: You're absolutely right. It doesn't matter that ANH Vader who contended with and even slashed in half Maul's saber (a feat Kenobi could only replicate when horrendously amped), then grew "far more formidable" and is stated to have overcome the restraints of his armour is being assessed here. I must have missed where base Kenobi did anything significant against Maul like cutting his staff in half. 

@O-Siri: One-sided. Flooring Maul after cutting the staff with a kick.
 
 Business as usual Kenobi gets his placement over Maul  from Lucas.

 

It doesn’t matter if the portrayal isn’t what Lucas wanted. He still officially settled with the in universe explanation because he couldn’t convincingly portray real Jedi in his eyes .

@BoD: Which  he then retconned for ESB and ROTJ, so this is - again - irrelevant.
@O-Siri: Not a retcon he saying the same thing in The Birth of a Lightsaber Featurette and 20 years later. Vader is simply better than he was but still inferior to Jinn Kenobi and Maul.

Well good thing this is TPM Kenobi vs ANH Vader then.

@BoD: Yep. Now if only base TPM Kenobi had held his own against TPM Maul and hadn't been horrendously amped. You might have had a point. 

@O-Siri: Doesn’t need it because he’s got independent placement over any version of Vader from Lucas. Maul being a level above Kenobi doesn’t mean anything for Vader who was dominated. 

Kenobi wasn’t any more “empowered” by emotion than Maul or Vader his speed and skill and will to survive that also kept him in the fight and his moment of clarity enabled him to use the light side to defeat him. If the power comes from within then it isn’t an amp. 

Double checked the quote he calls them Jedi not “real Jedi”.

@O-Siri: You claimed it not me. Your oversight your problem.

No t just means Luke and Vader ESB and beyond is superior to anyone in ANH something that is supported by C-Canon anyway. If Lucas felt the choreography from ESB\RotJ was up to snuff with his standards of what “real Jedi” is in his eyes he wouldn’t have said “we haven’t seen any real Jedi”

@BoD: "Except for Obi-Wan."

@O-Siri: Nope two different clauses two different subjects. 


I wanted to come up with an apprentice for the Emperor who was striking and tough. We hadn’t seen a Sith Lord before, except for Vader, of course.


@BoD: By all means: explain how this suggests Vader < TPM Kenobi/Maul.

@O-Siri: Lucas doesn’t make any combative comparisons. 

and if changed his mind he wouldn’t have restated his position 20 years later.

@BoD: Except he didn't. 

@O-Siri: Except he did.

As it stands Maul/Jinn/Kenobi > RotJ Luke/Vader > ESB Vader > ESB Luke > ANH Vader/Ben.

Yikes.

@O-Siri: Enjoy you’re existential crisis. You’ll get over it and realize it it’s silly to live a fantasy to begin with.

Nowhere in that quote does Lucas make a comparison of Maul with Vader. 

@BoD: He literally said "we haven't seen a Sith lord before, except for Darth Vader." That's a comparison.

@O-Siri: No combative comparisons though like he did in the featurettes

Yep but he couldn’t realize it to his satisfaction so he shoehorned in an in universe explanation to account for the out of universe deficiencies. 

@BoD: Which isn't meant to literally mean ANH Vader < TPM Kenobi, given their base selves respective performances against Maul.

@O-Siri: It couldn’t be clearer Lucas decided TPM Kenobi alongside the other real Jedi are greater than any of the OT fossils. Maul > Vader too both by feats and statements.

No it still applies to the entire OT or else we would have seen real Jedi well before Episode I. 

@BoD: He literally clarifies in 2005 - and therefore retconning quotes he made while promoting a new trilogy's choreography - that the quote applies only to 2005.

@O-Siri: No he still has the PT Jedi higher in The Birth of a Lightsaber Featurette and 20 years later we still haven’t seen real Jedi in IV,V,or VI. The only thing he’s clarified is Vader and Luke > ANH Vader/Ben.


He couldn’t move at all, really. We had to keep modifying the suit so people could move in it. By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine.


@BoD: Are you done twisting his words? 

@O-Siri: I’m not twisting anything. He says he’s accepted the old man half droid in universe explanation and on multiple occasions expressed the superiority of the PT warriors over the OT counterparts.

It’s not one passage that was my point. Lucas makes a statement about us having not seen any real Jedi in action. Then he switches to a completely different subject when he says Ben is the only Jedi we’ve seen outside the many that must have existed. If Ben qualifies as a real Jedi then the previous statement is pointless. 

 

@O-Siri: Trust me it’s a whole lot easier to accept reality than it is to rail against it.

Lucas doesn’t say all elderly Jedi aren’t real Jedi only Ben and Vader. It may not have been his intent but in the end it is what he accepted and that’s the official in universe explanation.

@BoD: Yeah nah. Good luck explaining how this quote only applies to Ben and Vader, both of whom are younger than Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, Qui-Gon, etc. 

@O-Siri: Lucas likely settled on Jinn being closer to his late forties than sixties seeing how  Liam looks no where near the latter. Him being sixty seems to be an early concept that stuck with the novel. Not saying I don’t accept his official age or anything just trying to get inside Lucas thought process.

Anyways why do I need to explain anything? The only thing that matters is that Lucas has everyone from the OT below the anyone who qualifies as a real Jedi in the PT. Dooku Yoda and Sidious officially are at the top.

Everything else is either unimportant enough to address or has been addressed one way or another. 

BoD wrote:

That’s the point you can’t quantity it.

Several minutes is plausible. During which Maul is clearly the ring general.

Landing two hits doesn't make you "the ring general" by any means. One was through agility, and the other was through getting close. Both did absolutely nothing to Vader.
@O-Siri: Controlling the flow of the fight is the very definition of being the ring general.

I don’t see Maul being forced back in those scans unless you are referring to after the staff is cut. Again all this did was fluster Maul. It’s not equivalent to doing any damage or disarming him or even seizing the momentum. 

You're twisting the context. Vader clearly dodges Maul's hit and has pushed him back to the point that he can slice the staff in half.

@O-Siri: Still don’t see it. You’re inferring events between the scans we don’t see.

Jinns last hurrah is more impressive no matter how you look at it.

In what way is it more impressive? He failed to last longer than 30 seconds per the film despite it being, as you put it "his last hurrah". Please explain how it's more impressive. 
@O-Siri: Because he seriously pressured Maul. Something Vader failed to achieve.

No marital strikes did damage Vader - he grunts in pain everytime Maul lands something -

Really?





He grunts - whether it's in pain or discomfort - once, when Maul gets in close and uses a martial strike. The only other time he makes a sound is when Maul slashes him with his staff.

@O-Siri: In other words he was phased by his martial strokes.

and served to build up momentum. Cutting the staff didn’t do anything to Maul other than make him angry.

I'm sorry, but this is blatant twisting of the context. If Maul were in complete control or had a noticeable edge, Vader would never have been in a position to cut the staff in half as he did. He wouldn't have been able to force Maul back twice, either. 

@O-Siri: The second never happened. Vader’s one spot of success after being dominated in a one-sided marathon is his slicing the weak part of the staff which again only served to make him angry. Inferior to Jinn and Kenobi seriously pressuring Maul. 

Plus the center of the staff is a known weak spot.

Which Maul is well aware of, being a master of the staff.

@O-Siri: Being aware of it doesn’t stop it from being a weak point. Vader’s inability to follow up on his success speaks volumes.

His being unable to defend it against an opponent he takes seriously speaks volumes. 

@O-Siri: You wouldn’t know Maul took him seriously by the way he was mocking him something TPM Maul detests.

The landed martial and saber strikes at least serve to show who is the more skilled and capable warrior and how reliant Vader is on his durability.

Uh, no. It shows that one warrior has advantages over the other (agility and superior weapon)
@O-Siri: And timing, speed, and elusiveness seeing how Vader wasn’t making Maul pay for his repeated success.


which grant him an advantage in the combat portion, not that he's necessarily more technically skilled or more capable. 

@O-Siri: Being more physically capable certainly helps cement Mauls superiority to Vader as a duelist. 

To bad speed and agility matters in lightsaber dueling. 

Substitute “skill”,  whatever that really means, with ability and my point still stands. Maul is a better duelist than Vader and it showed. 

The author doesn’t mention anything about the weapon being the edge only his mobility. He didn’t say anything about it being slight either. 

I never claimed he did, so this is a strawman. I said that it would be an advantage over a Vader who hasn't fought a capable swordsman in several years, and who has grown somewhat complacent. 

@O-Siri:  What you said: “between the two that Maul has a slight edge in due to his agility and weapon, per the author”

You claimed “as per the author” Maul had a “slight”edge do to his weapon in addition to his agility. All in the same clause. If you meant something different then its your issue with clear communication not my problem.

Sure I can buy the unfamiliarity of the staff being a factor. It’s a highly impractical weapon otherwise, as Kas’im says the fact that so few people use it and thus no experience in how to deal with it is what gives those who use it an advantage even if it is more limiting in practice.

What's a bigger disadvantage: the weapon to a master of it with years of experience in its usage and intimate knowledge of its strengths and weaknesses, or the weapon to an adversary who has never encountered it before while in the suit?  

@O-Siri: Not the point. The point is unpredictability is the main reason the weapon which limits the users movements and has a vulnerable center is even viable to begin with. Real life lightsaber duelists don’t even recommend it because it is so hard to use without hitting yourself. Hell just look at how much more fluid and less constricted Ray Park is when they cut the staff in the movie. The difference is night and day. There’s a reason double-bladed swords don’t exist.

Problem with that as an excuse though is that the same disadvantage applies to Jinn and Kenobi.

Yes it does. They also don't have Vader's limited agility, which makes countering it even harder. 

@O-Siri: Agility doesn’t make it any easier to anticipate. Really you are just saying the Jedi can contend better because they have more ability than Vader. Technical knowledge means less if you lack the physicality to implement your moves.

An don’t give me the BS about how every temple guard used a pike therefore all Jedi knows how to counter it.

What would make you think I'd argue this?

@O-Siri: Everytime I point out the unpredictability factor someone always brings up the temple guards. I was merely covering my bases.

Anakin lived in the temple for 10 years and he still found Ventress’s modular staff tricky and unfamiliar in the TCW JN. 

Irrelevant. That said, I'm going out on a whim here and I'm going to guess that he struggled with it because he's not fought an opponent with her level of skill with it. 

1. He makes even quicker work of Vader with Jar Kai a style he definitely has plenty of experience in dealing with Starkiller.

So you're arguing SK ~ Maul in Jar'Kai, when Vader fought as an equal/superior with SK? If anything, you've just supported my argument that ANH Vader became complacent in those two years.

@O-Siri: The SK ~ Maul bit is a red herring. It’s irrelevant. Point is Maul with a familiar weapon set still dominated Vader like he was with the staff, meaning your proposal Mauls tagging Vader is only the result of unpredictability and not superior skill and ability is deeply flawed given you would expect him to have more success now that the staff is out of the question but instead the opposite occurred.

Switching territories to gain more of an advantage he already had, as was the case with the PT duo, is immaterial to the fact he was outfighting him and piercing his guard multiple times.

Stop twisting the fight out of proportion. He landed one hit right at the start, the two duel evenly for a time, then he lands another hit by parrying Vader's hit with one side of his staff then moving in close to land a quick backhand to his helmet. Landing a couple of hits in combat is meaningless. Satele landed a kick on Malgus after he landed a hit on her. Ahsoka landed a couple of kicks on Maul, when we know he's more skilled. In between those two hits, Vader overpowers him in a saber lock.

@O-Siri: The point remains Maul was the one doing all the damage and dictating the pace and location. If it was back and forth with Vader trading his own advantages like Kenobi did it you might have a point.
 

Scan 1 shows Maul and Vader engaged in a blade lock. Scan 2 shows Maul in a defensive crouch as Vader comes in with an overhead strike.

What kind of crouches have you been looking at?



I shouldn't need to explain this but:

1. Maul has his back foot off the ground and his right leg rotated as if to compensate for a propelling motion backwards.
2. Maul's body weight is largely horizontal here. He's leaning back at around a 140 degrees angle, while simultaneously balancing on one foot.
3. Maul has his left log - his support leg in this case - bent and braced clear of his body, a completely impractical position for it if he's defending against an overhead strike. 

Essentially, Maul is doing this to a greater extent:



If you want to argue this is a defensive crouch, try and replicate what Maul is doing. Bend backwards, bend your left leg in front of you with the calf muscles tensed for support, then move your right leg behind you with the foot lifted and clear of the ground, then tell me it's a defensive crouch. 

@O-Siri: You’re right it isn’t a crouch. Looking at it more closely it looks to me he’s maneuvering. Doesn’t mean he was forced to though he could have easily broken off on his own volition to reset himself.




Vader's blade is held in the same position it was in when doing the blade lock, only with the arms extended to indicate a motion.

@O-Siri: It’s not in the same position then. 


2. Vader in the exact same position as he was in the blade lock, only this time with his arms extended (indicating he's just shoved them outwards).
@O-Siri: Or Maul broke off on his own to reset himself.

Not seeing where Maul is pushed back or overpowered.

No, you don't want to see it. That's the problem.
@O-Siri: No actually I just don’t see any scans of Maul being physically overpowered. 

More evenly matched than expected doesn’t make it evenly matched period especially if they had low expectations to begin with.

Very well, then. How about Maul stating Vader "stand(s) (his) ground against me" and that he's "confident" when they're fighting on even ground? 

@O-Siri: A backhanded compliment. Same way a big brother belittles his smaller sibling with “you’re a tough for a little guy aren’t you”  He’s amused is all. 

.
Maul is surprised that Vader is holding his own and that he can't outright overwhelm him, and switches the terrain as a result to try and exploit Vader's lack of agility:



@O-Siri: Maul was trying to kill Vader by sinking him into the lava he didn’t expect him to survive. He wasn’t changing territories for the purposes of gaining a lightsaber advantage.

the prophets we’re still confident Maul would win.

Yes, because they didn't believe Vader had the will or perseverance to win, lol. Not that his skills nor his power were insufficient:

1. Agility yes.

Something Vader has notorious difficulty with when facing a comparably skilled opponent.

@O-Siri: Which extends to Kenobi.

Staff, rust, and environment no. The author never says anything about that.

Probably because - you might not be aware of this - the author isn't aware of Vader growing complacent. 

@O-Siri: Which applies to this hypothetical fight with Kenobi.

Maul was winning regardless of which environment

Oh, naturally. He just decided to switch the fight to uneven and unfamiliar terrain that would impede Vader - with his limited mobility - because he wanted to get the sauna experience. 

@O-Siri: Vader has cement feet it doesn’t matter how uneven the terrain is; if anything it would be an impediment to the mover. You’re just making all kinds of excuses, the story of Vader’s life. 

2. No the author said it was hypothetical and we really don’t know. 

Not my point. The author said it's possible Vader could do that within the story, and clarified that it was in power. He says it's "hypothetical: we really don't know" because it didn't happen

@He didn’t say it was possible he outright said we don’t know. 

and reinforces the Lucas supremacy quote.

So ANH Vader ~ TPM Maul, characters who Lucas holds in similar esteem both as villains and as characters.

@O-Siri: Irrelevant.

Rust and weapon choice is irrelevant

You are clearly reaching if you believe that an unfamiliar weapon and 2 years of complacency and inaction wouldn't be relevant. 

@O-Siri: Kenobi dealt with the same weapon far better. Vader struggled just as badly with a familiar weapon set in Jar Kai. Inaction applies to ANH Vader; even if you think he was over the rust by the end he was still dominated.

with a different weapon

Another weapon Vader has trouble with against an opponent with exceptional skill with it.

@O-Siri: Any references besides this fight? I thought he was did pretty well against starkiller. Nah I think Maul’s superior skill and ability had more to do with it.

and any further rust at that point would apply to ANH Kenobi, the one TPM Kenobi is facing.

Not entirely sure what you're saying here. I assume it's that ANH Ben and ANH Vader were rusty, which is true: they were. Vader was likewise hindered by PTSD and flashbacks in that fight which Lucas has repeatedly distanced from the rest of the fights, even going so far as to state that ANH wasn't what he'd hoped for. 

@O-Siri: I meant to type *Vader not ANH Kenobi my mistake. Point I was trying to make is that Vader was dominated up to the final stretch meaning the rust if was still there or not would apply to ANH Vader as well.

2.Never pushed Maul back clearly.

Ah, so Maul just started stumbling back because he was practising a new way of intimidating and taunting his opponent. 

@O-Siri: Or twisting, turning, and maneuvering like he always does.

freethedevil wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

freethedevil wrote:Interesting. Still, wouldn't it be retconned by TCW? TCW was part of the old eu, no?

Regardless, for all using the fight, this still applies:

Secondly, the only reason the duel even happened is because the priestesses dared him to not use the force. Said priestesses said, "you could destroy us all with the force." That includes Maul.

Fodder still gets his neck snapped 

Sorry for the late reply. No, not really. I don't know what you mean by old EU, if you mean Legends continuity, yes because TCW S1-S5. it's pre-2014 tie in material and SoD comics fall under that continuity because it was T canon and C canon. The only thing that TCW has retconned is the premise that Maul died in TPM, Resurrection's depiction of how these versions of Maul and Vader compare hasn't been retconned

If the premise has been retconned, then, by extension, everything built on said premise has been retconned. That's how premises work. Intent means jackshit if the material created with said intent didn't really happen.