Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

MasterCilghal wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:I find power quotes to be rather vague personally. Are they referring to raw power that comes about as a result of one's potential and midichlorian count that contributes to a being's reserves of energy or their actual employable power? How many authors even make this distinction in the first place? 

Out of the ten quotes addressing Luke vs Vader the vast majority mentions the ROTJ duel. Those are pretty clearly referring to the fact that Luke and Vader are a match for one another, at the very least in lightsaber combat and I don’t think Luke’s parity with Vader is only in that regard since the two are a match on an universal level and Luke’s raw power, well, far outstrips Vader’s . Furthermore, Vader thinking his son might best him and fact file 5 noting “As father and son faced each other in a lightsaber duel, it was clear that the younger man had now developed powers that equaled his father’s” confirms It’s developed power, not raw power that we’re talking  about here. For instance AOTC Anakin has a raw power comparable to that of Yoda but when he faced Dooku nowhere is it stated he defeated him, rather all evidence points to Dooku having taken the duo easily barring the “flashes of brilliance” state Anakin achieved for a brief time. By contrast, Vader being Luke’s equal as an overall combatant is noted several times as being a permanent thing, so to speak. 

Syndiciate wrote:I don't seen any reason to doubt Luke's opinion on what Vader is capable of here. As for the Vader vs Teneniel Djo comparison, one can simply note that Luke being aware that Vader is capable of tooling him does not give him full knowledge of his father's actual capabilities.

So you’re telling me that we should disregard a lot of OUU quotes making it clear Luke rivals his father in all areas because of a single statement from a biased source? Doesn’t make sense to me. It is also important to point out that there are other instances of Luke being clearly wrong in his evaluation of other character’s abilities, namely Kenobi, with Luke being sure he could take Vader with literally a single gesture, and similarly with Sheev. So yes, I see a lot of reasons to to doubt Luke’s opinion, as his judgment has already been wrong in the past. add that to the comparison with the Teneniel comparison, and it all becomes more... suspect insight. 

Spoiler:

Above I've provided a breakdown of how I interpret Luke and Vader's fight in RotJ in order to reconcile Luke's statement in SoM. 

If it fails to address anything in your post I'll be sure to address any hanging threads in a future post.

EmperorCaedus wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:Luke one-shots.

Based on what?

Luke beat a version of Sidious who is superior to his RotJ iteration, who stomps RotJ Luke. RotJ Luke is > Vader in both force and lightsaber skill. 

Luke beat Sidious when amped by Leia. Luke was disarmed of his lightsaber by a casual blast of lightning from Sidious and handily defeated in a duel by a Sidious inhabiting an immature clone body. 

Where is Luke shown to be > Vader in his ability to use the Force or in terms of lightsaber skill?

so this means vader > de luke,simply equals vader=de luke or luke DE > vader?

EmperorCaedus wrote:

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:How is RotJ Luke superior to Vader as a Force user?

The Ultimate Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Before he can make peace with his father, Luke must prove that he is a ,match for him in strength and character. In a final epic lightsaber duel, Vader realizes that his son's powers have become greater than his own and falls, beaten.

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:If you're referring to Dark Empire then remember Luke only won because Leia was amping him and weakening Palpatine with battle meditation. 

Leia's BM has little to no effect on Luke. Leia's BM was described as "elementary" and Luke didn't even know he was being amped in the slightest, further proving it had no effect on him at all.

That's not how "proof" works. We know that prior to this point, Sidious is able to handily best Luke in a duel while inhabiting an immature clone body and even as of that fight can disarm him of his lightsaber with a single blast of lightning. Leia amping Luke and Luke's performance suddenly improving vastly is indication that the amp is significant. It's up to you to explain why we should believe otherwise.

The lord of hunger wrote:so this means vader > de luke,simply equals vader=de luke or luke DE > vader?

it depends. Sidious is the one who mostly says this. he couldve technically been trying to fool luke (which wouldve worked perfectly lol), BUT the words of the characters are also the words of the author. so we either have sheev repeating himself to make luke believe him, or we have the author speaking his mind through sheev.

Luckily for us, we have Luke admitting inferiority to Joruus just 1 years before DE. Joruus being as strong as, or weaker than even Vader.

The lord of hunger wrote:so this means vader > de luke,simply equals vader=de luke or luke DE > vader?

Luke may possess greater raw power which would likely enable him to use a basic ability like, say; telekinesis or augmentation, to a greater extent than his father as of DE but his ability to defend against or use more advanced abilities to the same degree would be in question.

Luke only actually surpassed Vader, in the general sense of things (as in, most categories, and just one or another), by the later half of DE, imo.

so what does that mean superior or nah?

The lord of hunger wrote:so what does that mean superior or nah?

Well, think about it like this. A well rounded MMA fighter ( Vader being a powerful and knowledgeable fighter ) might beat an expert in jiu-jitsu ( Luke's raw power giving him superiority in specific fields ) but be inferior to that expert in a fight where they can only use jiu-jitsu specifically ( I.E. a pure lightsaber duel ). That's how I view RotJ Vader and RotJ Luke tbh. I think Luke surpassed Vader in a general sense at some point during DE.

yes, overall superior. things i personally think Luke never surpassed his father in is prolly skill with the force, tactical prowess, fighting experience, and maybe the amount of abilities they each had. luke had the better ones, but im quite sure luke never learned as much as vader did. oh, and piloting.

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:@DarthAnt66: when I said Vader got Luke’s saber away from him I was referring to this https://youtu.be/rOgpvr-cbpQ

@AlakanSpacewalker

Vader never disarmed Luke. Luke threw his lightsaber at Vader because he refused to fight. The scene was cut from the film but mentioned in the novel:

"Luke put his lightsaber on the ground, and rolled it along the floor toward Vader. It stopped halfway between them, in the middle of the low overhead area. The Dark Lord reached out his hand -Luke's lightsaber jumped into it. He hooked it to his belt and, with grave uncertainty, entered the shadowy overhang."

@BoD:

The RAFODV also has Vader growing desperate and leaving himself open to a kick in that same scene, suggesting he actually hindered himself.

Yes, Vader's growing desperate because he's losing the fight to Luke. How does that mean he "actually hindered himself?"

And of course they wouldn't. Baseline Luke =/= rage amped Luke, nor is rage amped Luke =/= "you son of a bitch I'm going to kill you" Luke.

There's three Luke's across the fight: passive rage amped (at the start until he kicks Vader down the stairs), holding back (after Vader walks up the stairs), and actively raged amped (the ending sequence). The "equally powerful" quotes would refer to Luke's default position, which wouldn't be including circumstantial boosts if there's other long durations of the fight when he's not circumstantially boosted, meaning the quotes would refer to holding back Luke.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:@DarthAnt66: when I said Vader got Luke’s saber away from him I was referring to this https://youtu.be/rOgpvr-cbpQ

@AlakanSpacewalker

Vader never disarmed Luke. Luke threw his lightsaber at Vader because he refused to fight. The scene was cut from the film but mentioned in the novel:

"Luke put his lightsaber on the ground, and rolled it along the floor toward Vader. It stopped halfway between them, in the middle of the low overhead area. The Dark Lord reached out his hand -Luke's lightsaber jumped into it. He hooked it to his belt and, with grave uncertainty, entered the shadowy overhang."

@BoD:

The RAFODV also has Vader growing desperate and leaving himself open to a kick in that same scene, suggesting he actually hindered himself.

Yes, Vader's growing desperate because he's losing the fight to Luke. How does that mean he "actually hindered himself?"

And of course they wouldn't. Baseline Luke =/= rage amped Luke, nor is rage amped Luke =/= "you son of a bitch I'm going to kill you" Luke.

There's three Luke's across the fight: passive rage amped (at the start until he kicks Vader down the stairs), holding back (after Vader walks up the stairs), and actively raged amped (the ending sequence). The "equally powerful" quotes would refer to Luke's default position, which wouldn't be including circumstantial boosts if there's other long durations of the fight when he's not circumstantially boosted, meaning the quotes would refer to holding back Luke.

Whoopsie, I forgot bout that. One more question I have for you is do you have any proof that SWFF and NEC are based on New Republic historians and not what actually happened? Just wondering.

One more question I have for you is do you have any proof that SWFF and NEC are based on New Republic historians and not what actually happened? Just wondering.

The Official Star Wars Fact File is prefaced with an introductory file that states 

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away . . . 

The New Republic rules from the planet Coruscant in an era of instability. 28 years after the destruction of the second Death Star, the President has decreed that all reports, documents, books and plans of the Old Republic, the Trade Federation, the Empire, and the New Republic are to be integrated into a single immense file.

All the extraordinary, rich and brilliant history of the Star Wars universe is here: discover it in the Official Star Wars Fact File.



---

The New Essential Chronology starts with 'in-universe' author Voren Na'al discussing the sources he had available to write the work:

@Darthant66 Luke himself say's to Vader. "I feel the good in you the conflict". You could try to dismiss this by using Vader's response, " there is no conflict". Except Vader being conflicted is basically his whole arc he goes through in ROTJ. Don't act like Vader wasn't at a disadvantage when he fought him.

@DarthAnt66: If that were the case then why dose the FF say the “OFFICIAL” Fact Files like they’re canon or something like that? Besides every point I used from those files shown in the movie meaning it should still count though.

https://youtu.be/1jCWOFGYP2I
2:12 mark proves Vader is conflicted (hindered) and he can’t bring himself to hurt his son (holding back) the Rise and Fall of Darth Vader show that Vader had underestimated Luke and that was why he was kicked down the stairs as well as the fact that Vader was conflicted and wanted to turn back to the light. From that point onward he wasn’t fighting to beat Luke, rather delay his own defeat. Remember Vader forced Luke to hide and Luke only won by losing complete control over himself and attacking Vader who was likely distracted because he just found out how much suffering he caused his own daughter. Despite that Luke had to whale on him for several times to finally knock him down and “beat” him. Here’s what an official author has said about the duel https://ibb.co/C7GLXpV. 

Luke isn’t equal nor above Vader because not only Vader was weakened but Luke literally had the Force on his side. Oh, and Palpatine implies Luke wasn’t on Vader’s level in Dark Empire #4 and the DE sourcebook both saying he COULD be like Vader but wasn’t yet. Luke only matched hindered Vader’s strength while he himself was amped by the Dark Side and he was also using the Dark Side when he kicked Vader down the stairs which I think was stated in the RotJ novel.


Also remember when you said “Luke was with the alliance and not training? Do you have any proof of that? If he was then why did Yoda say his training was complete when he returned to him? Also you said: “Luke wasn’t training a a weapon to fight Vader” he should have been training to defend himself if he got into a fight with him. I mean this is the same Vader who Force choked his own wife and tortured his own daughter for hours. So it makes perfect sense that Luke would have trained to counter Vader between the two movies besides if he wasn’t training to fight Vader then why was he the first to ignite his lightsaber? And how did he become so skilled between the movies? That’s right by training non stop between them! Again Luke had studied Vader’s style and knew what to expect while Vader has never quite seen Luke’s style before and since he could still counter it while hindered despite the Force being against him winning proves he is a little above Luke. I’ve already explained how why Vader couldn’t instantly turn the fight in his favor so you’ll need a better argument if you still think he’s > Vader.

I ask you something: do you seriously think Luke beat Vader by simply being superior to him or how do you think he beat him?

honestly, this topic needs blogs and blogs to find a general consensus lol

The Witness wrote:@Darthant66 Luke himself say's to Vader. "I feel the good in you the conflict". You could try to dismiss this by using Vader's response, " there is no conflict". Except Vader being conflicted is basically his whole arc he goes through in ROTJ. Don't act like Vader wasn't at a disadvantage when he fought him.

The "conflict" evidently didn't hinder him given he still "brought his full strength and power against the younger man" to paraphrase (It's also worth noting Luke was conflicted as well, yet still proved quite capable of matching his father). More to the point however we have (cereal box) accolades confirming Luke's equality regardless of the emotional circumstances at play, rendering this attempt at quibbling over the details of the fight that occurs at the end of ROTJ utterly irrelevant to the discussion currently at hand.

@AlakanSpacewalker

I know you were directing this post at DarthAnt66, but I feel the need to step in and address a few things.

https://youtu.be/1jCWOFGYP2I
2:12 mark proves Vader is conflicted (hindered)

The scene in question does prove that Vader was conflicted, yes. This has never once been in question. Everyone knows Vader was conflicted. However, the point of contention is whether or not the internal conflict hindered Vader, since there are sources which seem to imply it did not. Vader still exhibited more deadly invincibility than ever before, and brought his full strength and power to bear against Luke (source: Marvel’s Return of the Jedi Comic Adaptation). Even the original script chalks Luke’s advantage against Vader up to Luke’s growth, not any hindrance on Vader’s part: 

Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even 
more vicious then the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown 
stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him.

As for the second part of your claim:

and he can’t bring himself to hurt his son (holding back)

Nowhere in the movie is it said Vader can’t bring himself to hurt his son. Just because Luke believes this doesn’t mean Luke is actually right. Especially since we twice see Vader try to go for a killing blow on a Luke who has willingly lowered his defenses. This clearly contradicts your claim that Vader “can’t bring himself to hurt his son,” considering Luke would’ve died if he’d been even a fraction of a second too slow to block Vader’s strike on the stairs or to dodge the thrown lightsaber aimed for his head. On top of that, your claim that Vader was holding back is outright contradicted by both the official novelization and the comic adaptation.

the Rise and Fall of Darth Vader show that Vader had underestimated Luke and that was why he was kicked down the stairs

Vader underestimating Luke is just more evidence that Luke was extremely well-developed by this point, and was either Vader’s equal or superior. Shadows of the Empire makes it abundantly clear that Vader believed Luke to be one of the most powerful Jedi he’d ever faced by ESB, with Vader even believing ESB Luke to rival Anakin by that point. And Vader knew Luke had a year of training between their encounters. Remember, Vader commented on how powerful Luke had become on Endor, and had acknowledged that Luke’s skills were complete at the time Luke surrendered to him on the forest moon. Despite this, Luke still surpassed Vader’s expectations enough to astound the Sith, as evidenced in the novelization. 

as well as the fact that Vader was conflicted and wanted to turn back to the light.

Where is it stated that Vader actually wanted to turn back to the light? I’ve not actually read The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, so I’m not familiar with any line in the novel that claims Vader actively wished to return to the light side. Can you post the quote?

From that point onward he wasn’t fighting to beat Luke, rather delay his own defeat.

 

From the quotes from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader that have been posted in this chat, not to mention the lines in the RotJ novel and comic, this is outright false. Vader desperately wanted to defeat Luke. Luke was the one actively holding back. “I will not fight you.” Those are Luke’s words, not Vader’s. 

Remember Vader forced Luke to hide

Luke’s hiding had nothing to do with how powerful either was relative to the other. Luke was trying to avoid conflict altogether, because fighting Vader would inevitably lead to Luke turning to the dark side. George Lucas himself says as much in the 2004 RotJ commentary:

But in this one, Luke has become more mature, so that now he knows that he shouldn't be fighting him. That is the path to the Dark Side. So it's basically a competition between two people. One of them doesn't want to fight, and the other keeps trying to push him into it. - George Lucas, 2004

and Luke only won by losing complete control over himself and attacking Vader who was likely distracted because he just found out how much suffering he caused his own daughter. Despite that Luke had to whale on him for several times to finally knock him down and “beat” him.

We’re all familiar with the context around Luke’s final rage amp. Nobody is trying to argue that Luke didn’t draw on his hatred during that final battle. However, could you post quotes stating Vader was distracted? 

Here’s what an official author has said about the duel https://ibb.co/C7GLXpV .

Star Wars Wavelength is not an “official” author. That is a fan-run site. Everything stated in the source you posted is pretty much head canon by a fan with no more authority than you or I have.

Luke isn’t equal nor above Vader because not only Vader was weakened but Luke literally had the Force on his side.

We have a great many sources outright claiming RotJ Luke is Vader’s equal. You can’t ignore those sources just because you don’t like them. Nearly every primary and secondary source canon to Legends tells us that Luke is either Vader’s equal or superior by Return of the Jedi. Can you list a source that actually claims Luke had the Force on his side? I’ve seen no such source referenced anywhere until you made the claim. 

Oh, and Palpatine implies Luke wasn’t on Vader’s level in Dark Empire #4 and the DE sourcebook both saying he COULD be like Vader but wasn’t yet.

Palpatine doesn’t imply Luke was inferior to Vader in Dark Empire. Palpatine’s exact line is, “You can be far stronger than he was!” Nothing about this line implies Luke isn’t already comparable, if not marginally superior to Vader by this point in time. All it means is that DE Luke isn’t “far stronger” than Vader. As for the line from the DE handbook, could you please post it? The only one I found comparing Luke to Vader was under Emperor Palpatine’s entry, where it states, “But even as this new wave of terror swept across the stars, Palpatine had a much more personal agenda: the recruitment of Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight, as replacement for the Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Vader.” Again, this does not prove DE Luke is below Vader. Just that Sidious was looking for a replacement apprentice.

Also remember when you said “Luke was with the alliance and not training? Do you have any proof of that?

Luke did train, some. However, he didn’t focus entirely on training. Shadows of the Empire and several comics from the original Marvel run that were later made canon to Legends all show that Luke was still actively fighting as an agent of the Rebellion while also trying to develop his Jedi abilities after ESB. 

 

If he was then why did Yoda say his training was complete when he returned to him?

Luke did develop further skill while fighting for the Rebellion, and he certainly did some training off-screen. But Luke had to divide attention between training and active missions, much like the padawans of the Clone Wars. And just as we see in the Clone Wars, taking part in active missions can actually seriously hone the abilities of a Jedi, arguably more than what they’d learn through conventional training.

Also you said: “Luke wasn’t training a a weapon to fight Vader” he should have been training to defend himself if he got into a fight with him. I mean this is the same Vader who Force choked his own wife and tortured his own daughter for hours. So it makes perfect sense that Luke would have trained to counter Vader between the two movies besides if he wasn’t training to fight Vader then why was he the first to ignite his lightsaber? And how did he become so skilled between the movies? That’s right by training non stop between them!

Partly addressed above. Luke honed his skills on the battlefield, not by training non-stop. And yes, Luke did incorporate elements of Vader’s Form V into his lightsaber style to later use against the Sith Lord, but I haven’t seen a single source claim Luke developed his lightsaber skills specifically to counter Vader. Luke just inherently learns from every duel he engages in and adapts appropriately, as implied in Fightsaber. Also, why does it matter who ignited their lightsaber first? Luke initially ignited his lightsaber out of anger in an attempt to kill the Emperor. That has absolutely nothing to do with who is more skilled, or who trained in what manner. 

Again Luke had studied Vader’s style and knew what to expect while Vader has never quite seen Luke’s style before and since he could still counter it while hindered despite the Force being against him winning proves he is a little above Luke. I’ve already explained how why Vader couldn’t instantly turn the fight in his favor so you’ll need a better argument if you still think he’s > Vader.

Luke was passingly familiar with Vader’s style after two prior duels (Splinter of the Mind’s Eye and ESB), so yes, he was aware of what to expect going into the duel. However, to claim Vader has “never quite seen Luke’s style before” is a pretty weird claim to make. Vader trained at the height of the Jedi Order. He trained with people like Cin Drallig, who were masters of all seven lightsaber styles. Luke might have an odd hybrid style, but it’s not too wildly different from any of the styles Vader’s seen during his Jedi training. In fact, Luke’s primary element, Form V, is the same as Vader’s. Fightsaber literally says that Luke mirrored Vader’s style. So Vader should have just as much familiarity with the strengths and flaws of Form V as Luke does. 

Also, you claim again that Vader was hindered, or that the Force was actively against him. Neither of those are solidly supported, and the line of Vader being hindered is actually contested in existing sources such as the official novel and comic adaptations. 

I ask you something: do you seriously think Luke beat Vader by simply being superior to him or how do you think he beat him?

I believe Luke’s skill, raw power, and physical ability are all comparable to Vader, if not slightly above. However, if they had been complete strangers in this duel, Vader would still have had an edge due to sheer experience. I believe this advantage was offset by the boost Luke got through his rage, and by Vader having motives that weren’t outright killing Luke. However, Luke was also holding himself back throughout the duel as well, repeatedly stating throughout the whole movie that he couldn’t bring himself to kill his own father, and that he refused to fight.

@BOD u be better than i be. help me, for the please! a.s.a.p.

@Underachiever599 Great post.

great post :3