Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

Can people quit saying OT Vader is equal to OT Luke when there was so much context involved in that?

Luke’s contextual advantages:
1: the Force was literally on his side willing him to win and likely empowering him as stated in the RotJ novel.
2: Luke was Vader’s son and because of that Vader couldn’t bring himself to hurt him.
3: there was a full year between ESB and RotJ in which Luke did nothing else but meditate, self train, prefect everything Kenobi and Yoda had told him, as well as prepare for a rematch with the Dark Lord with counters to his fighting style as well as press his own advantages. If we assume he trained for 16 hours a day like he did with Yoda then he would have trained for 5840 hours (yes I did the math) at LEAST, and there was likely a bit more time (like a few weeks or months) between the two movies meaning Luke could have had more time to prep. This makes sense because of the article in Fightsaber which states the fallowing and I quote her “ an observing Jedi Master will be astonished by Luke’s instantaneous ability to adapt.” This means if Luke were to come up against someone who’s fighting style was nothing like the slow but powerful straightforward Vader then Luke would struggle a lot more and would likely lose even if that duelist isn’t nearly as skilled or powerful as Vader. Luke ain’t a good warrior, he’s just a weapon designed to fight Vader and only Vader. Because of this, Luke knew Vader’s fighting style while Vader himself has never seen anything quite like Luke’s style.

Vader’s contextual disadvantages:

1: him and Emperor were weaker around this time for an unexplained reason which is stated in Rise and Fall of Vader and RotJ novel.
2: Vader for unknown reason didn’t have The same command over the Dark Side once he used to which weakens him even more.
3: Vader was heavily conflicted which means he couldn’t focus properly and hindered his ability to use the Force through emotion which is essential to being a Sith or a Jedi. Which weakens him even more as well as forcing him to hold back weather he wanted to (like he did in the movie) or not. This is also confirmed all the more in Star Wars Fact Files 55 and the New Essential Chronology.
4: because of Vader’s conflict, he held way back which is stated in Star Wars Fact Files 17 where it’s said he didn’t want to hurt his son merely force him into submission and make him turn to the Dark Side however he also didn’t want that because he was conflicted and didn’t really know what he wanted.
5: while Luke had done nothing else but prepare, Vader on the other hand had no reason to prepare since he prior bodied Luke forcing him to flee for his life and wasn’t expecting his son to have much improvement which is said in the RotJ novel.
6: Vader had completely underestimated Luke as stated in the RotJ novel which is how Luke kicked him down the stairs and it’s what costed him once Luke got the dark amp.
7: Vader’s whole fighting style is focused on overpowering his enemies through raw strength alone but when his opponent has equal physical strength then he crumples (like he did once Luke got the Dark Side amp)

Despite all this, Vader still disarmed Luke of his lightsaber and forced him to hide making him far superior to Luke even in this unfair context which means if the fight was truly 50/50, Vader would have effortlessly destroyed Luke even quicker than Kenobi destroyed Maul in Rebels or quicker than Anakin killed the younglings during Order 66.

“bUt wHy dId VadEt lOsE tHe fIgHt” you ask. It’s because Luke only beat Vader because he was enraged beyond belief because Vader threatened Leia and used the Dark Side to an even greater effect than he otherwise ever could have. This use of the Dark Side caught Vader off guard because his change of tactics, Luke used this to pound on him before he could regain his composure. Even then this all couldn’t have happened if Vader had not found out Leia was his daughter seconds prior to the Dark Side amp and was distracted because he realized how much pain he caused her from slaughtering her friends to blowing up her homeworld, which probably caused him to be like this https://youtu.be/GyJNEZPm-pQ which intern allowed Luke to gain that win. Not only Vader was distracted but he was still holding back since he was blocking all of Luke’s strikes with one arm!

there are many ways to counter this mini essay, u know that right? im not saying im gonna do it, but they exist

I know sir

MasterCilghal wrote:

BoD wrote:It was a book edited and read point by point by Lucas.

I don’t see how that changes my point. Unless George came out and said “Luke is right in saying that Vader could have crushed him with the force” or the other way the ambiguity still stands. Essentially,  we’re still left with two different statements which really don’t coincide with one another.

If Lucas allowed it as well as the general tone that this is a Force user who unlike Vader was trying to kill him (author's words, not mine) despite overseeing it point by point and even praising it, it stands to reason that it pretty closely coincides with his vision.

All we know is that Lucas has Vader = Luke in sabers. TK and raw power are a different story.

BoD wrote:

MasterCilghal wrote:

BoD wrote:It was a book edited and read point by point by Lucas.

I don’t see how that changes my point. Unless George came out and said “Luke is right in saying that Vader could have crushed him with the force” or the other way the ambiguity still stands. Essentially,  we’re still left with two different statements which really don’t coincide with one another.

If Lucas allowed it as well as the general tone that this is a Force user who unlike Vader was trying to kill him (author's words, not mine) despite overseeing it point by point and even praising it, it stands to reason that it pretty closely coincides with his vision.

All we know is that Lucas has Vader = Luke in sabers. TK and raw power are a different story.

Where did Lucas say Vader and Skywalker were equals as duelists? I don’t feel like repeating all the context involved in there fight in RotJ so see above.

hamill said that, which is something i disagree with, but it is what it is

Where did Lucas say Vader and Skywalker were equals as duelists? I don’t feel like repeating all the context involved in there fight in RotJ so see above.

Hamill said it and there's a Lucas quote along those lines. Will try and find it in a bit.

Can you send me the link to the interview where he says that? Even if he did I’m not sure how trustworthy these actor statements are because if we use them then we also have to say Rey is more powerful than Anakin and Windu but not more powerful than Luke or Obi Wan because Daisy Riddly once said so https://youtu.be/L3edy87KFNU

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Can you send me the link to the interview where he says that? Even if he did I’m not sure how trustworthy these actor statements are because if we use them then we also have to say Rey is more powerful than Anakin and Windu but not more powerful than Luke or Obi Wan because Daisy Riddly once said so https://youtu.be/L3edy87KFNU

Difference is that Hamill actually knows things about Star Wars and had close contact with Lucas throughout ROTJ. Ridley knows almost nothing about SW and had no contact with Lucas.

Here's the extract:

yep luke and vader are equals on saber ability

Corvinus wrote:
Luke's Form V usage was derived from Vader's own, and he was good enough to land a critical hit on Vader during their duel on Cloud City.

The "critical hit" you're referring to is a glancing blow to one of Vader's pauldrons that Vader barely reacts to: 

But Luke seemed to learn with each move. He was quicker now. Stronger. The point of his sword nicked Vader's arm." - Empire Strikes Back: Adapted. 

---

He lunged at the Dark Lord with a vicious blow, bringing his sizzling laser blade to crash onto Vader's armor and sear through to the flesh. Vader staggered from the blow, and it seemed to Luke that he was in pain. But only for a moment. Then, once again, Vader began to move toward him." - ESB Novelization. 

---

"Luke swung hard and connected with the black armor plate on Vader’s right shoulder. The Sith Lord snarled in pain as bright sparks exploded from the shoulder plate. But Vader never lost his grip on his lightsaber." - ESB Junior Novelization. 

The most you get is Vader staggering for a moment before instantly recovering or "snarling in pain."

And Luke only accomplished this feat after receiving "a sudden surge of strength" at the memory of Ben's death: 

"Remembering how Darth Vader had cut down Obi-Wan, Luke felt a sudden surge of strength, his face twisting with anger. He flicked his wrist and his lightsaber’s blade whipped up, smacking Vader’s blade aside and allowing Luke to quickly scramble to his feet. 

-

Luke swung hard and connected with the black armor plate on Vader’s right shoulder." - ESB Junior Novelization. 

Corvinus wrote:
With only 3 more years of experience under his belt he defeated Vader, who had 19 years on him. Enraged or not, whether Vader would have won a Force battle or not, it doesn't matter. We have Luke winning against an opponent with vastly more experience. 

Why would Vader having more experience make whether or not Luke was enraged or Vader being capable of defeating him with the Force irrelevant factors in this discussion? Vader having more experience simply means he had his own advantages. It's up to us to compare which of these provided the greater benefit so we can accurately assess the character's capabilities. 

Corvinus wrote:
Anakin vs Dooku on the Invisible Hand comes to mind when taking the situation as a whole into account.

Anakin vs Dooku was a very different fight for a multitude of reasons. Not least because of the element of surprise, the fact that Dooku was fighting two opponents simultaneously and that if Dooku had been capable of tooling Anakin with the Force he likely would have done so. 

Corvinus wrote:Come DE we have statements assuring us of Luke's status as a Jedi Master, him being a Jedi of the highest order, 

You mean quotes that pretty much any highly ranked Jedi of the PT era also possess? Cool, why should that elevate him beyond the level his own performance against Vader in RotJ would already put him at? 

Corvinus wrote:
easily blocking Sedriss's Force Choke, one shotting him,

Oneshot? Do you mean knocking him down with a Force push? Considering Sedriss states that he possesses greater power than Luke directly after this occurs, I'm pretty skeptical that that qualifies as "oneshotting" him. Especially when the DE Handbook states that without interference, Sedriss had a good chance of coming out the victor in their contest. 

"Sedriss and VIll Gori met Luke Skywalker and recent Jedi recruit Kam Solusar on the plains of Ossus. Had it merely been a contest between dark side adepts and Jedi, Sedriss might have been victorious." - Dark Empire Handbook. 

Corvinus wrote:
Sidious praising his growth in the Force.

I don't believe anybody ever suggested DE Luke didn't grow after RotJ. It's the extent of that growth which was disputed. 

Corvinus wrote:
He contended with Sidious in a lightsaber duel. He got up after a direct blast of Force Lightning from Sidious.

Luke lost to Sidious in a duel after initially catching him off guard after Sidious had entered an immature clone body that hadn't had time to reach full development. 

As for the blast of lightning, he was oneshot by it despite having his lightsaber up to defend against it at the time. 

Corvinus wrote:
This is just DE Luke, nothing else, and there's much more. Just this is enough to prove his superiority over the duo though,

How would losing a duel to an DE Sidious inhabiting an immature clone body and being oneshot by his lightning put him on either character's level? 

Corvinus wrote:
and to do away with the "they have more experience" argument. Experience doesn't matter to Luke Skywalker.

I'm sorry, but how is you declaring "experience doesn't matter" a valid argument?

MasterCilghal wrote:

BoD wrote:It was a book edited and read point by point by Lucas.

I don’t see how that changes my point. Unless George came out and said “Luke is right in saying that Vader could have crushed him with the force” or the other way the ambiguity still stands. Essentially,  we’re still left with two different statements which really don’t coincide with one another.

They only don't coincide or actively butt heads if one is determined to make one of the quotes mean something that it may not necessarily. As fans of the lore, we should be trying to reconcile continuity as opposed to creating unnecessary rifts in it.

Meatpants (away) wrote:ROTJ Luke would beat Starkiller, let alone DE Luke lmao. Vader can't tip the balance either.

Based on what are you making such an assertion? Quotes that existed decades before the character of Starkiller was even thought of as a concept let alone the idea of TFU? One's that can easily be re-contextualized if we're determined to adhere to them based on new material added to continuity after the fact? If so, I'd say that's a pretty terrible reason to base such a position off of.

EmperorCaedus wrote:Luke one-shots.

Based on what?

Syndiciate wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:Luke one-shots.

Based on what?

Bias

i dont agree with the idea that luke = vader in skill as of ROTJ, but he is certainly on his lvl by DE

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i dont agree with the idea that luke = vader in skill as of ROTJ, but he is certainly on his lvl by DE

Agreed. Though I’d say DE Luke may be a superior to both Vader and Anakin though he couldn’t take either without a hard fight.

honestly, its really hard to gauge how skilled vader is, to me at least. all of his accolades say he is the best, but his feats are lacking. mostly because comics have him struggling with every fucking jedi he fights. he somehow destroys one of the most skilled the order in one of his first missions ever as darth vader, but has trouble with some low end council member lvl jedi years later, when he is far more skilled

@AlakanSpacewalker

1: the Force was literally on his side willing him to win and likely empowering him as stated in the RotJ novel.

Neither the ROTJ novel nor any other source state that Luke was empowered by the Force itself. 

2: Luke was Vader’s son and because of that Vader couldn’t bring himself to hurt him.

Vader's best case scenario was to defeat Luke without killing him, as he wanted Luke to eventually help him kill Palpatine. However, Vader still prioritized his own life and position over Luke, and he especially regarded Luke killing him and joining Palpatine an 'avoid-at-all-costs' scenario ("I can’t let Luke defeat me. I won't let the Emperor have him."). Consequently, Vader striked with lethal intent (e.g. "Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat, but Luke met the riposte and stepped back."), “pressed the attack at every turn,” “seemingly did not hold any reluctance at the clash,” and “brutally, aggressively brought his full strength and power against" Luke. Vader's selfishness only changed after seeing Luke's total faith and love in him when Luke threw away his lightsaber and let Palpatine attack him.

3: there was a full year between ESB and RotJ in which Luke did nothing else but meditate, self train, prefect everything Kenobi and Yoda had told him, as well as prepare for a rematch with the Dark Lord with counters to his fighting style as well as press his own advantages. If we assume he trained for 16 hours a day like he did with Yoda then he would have trained for 5840 hours (yes I did the math) at LEAST, and there was likely a bit more time (like a few weeks or months) between the two movies meaning Luke could have had more time to prep. This makes sense because of the article in Fightsaber which states the fallowing and I quote her “ an observing Jedi Master will be astonished by Luke’s instantaneous ability to adapt.” This means if Luke were to come up against someone who’s fighting style was nothing like the slow but powerful straightforward Vader then Luke would struggle a lot more and would likely lose even if that duelist isn’t nearly as skilled or powerful as Vader. Luke ain’t a good warrior, he’s just a weapon designed to fight Vader and only Vader. 

Luke spent most of his time with the Alliance, not training. Moreover, Luke explicitly did not want to fight Vader in ROTJ. He was arguably "a weapon designed to fight Vader and only Vader" in ESB but, in ROTJ, "Luke is much more mature, so he knows that he shouldn't be fighting him. [He] doesn't want to fight." 

George Lucas, Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi DVD commentary wrote:The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger while he’s fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he’s fighting his father he’s fighting with anger and, therefore, begins to use the dark side of the Force. But in The Empire Strikes, we had them confront each other and fight together. But, in this one, Luke is much more mature, so he knows that he shouldn’t be fighting him - that is the path to the dark side. It's a confrontation between two people. One of them doesn't want to fight. The other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end, when he gives up finally and really fights, what’s happened there ultimately is that Luke is turning to the dark side and going to be lost.

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1: him and Emperor were weaker around this time for an unexplained reason which is stated in Rise and Fall of Vader and RotJ novel.

According to Vader, Palpatine "the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before" in ROTJ. Sources also state ROTJ Vader is his suit prime. 

2: Vader for unknown reason didn’t have The same command over the Dark Side once he used to which weakens him even more.

Not true. 

3: Vader was heavily conflicted which means he couldn’t focus properly and hindered his ability to use the Force through emotion which is essential to being a Sith or a Jedi. Which weakens him even more as well as forcing him to hold back weather he wanted to (like he did in the movie) or not. This is also confirmed all the more in Star Wars Fact Files 55 and the New Essential Chronology.

Both FF and the NEC are in-universe and written by New Republic historians speculating about Vader's emotional state. Out-of-universe sources like the ROTJ comic state Vader still "brought his full strength and power against" Luke and "seemingly did not hold any reluctance at the clash." 

5: while Luke had done nothing else but prepare, Vader on the other hand had no reason to prepare since he prior bodied Luke forcing him to flee for his life and wasn’t expecting his son to have much improvement which is said in the RotJ novel.

Vader was anticipating to eventually overthrow Palpatine with Luke, so he would be training for that far more difficult fight. 

6: Vader had completely underestimated Luke as stated in the RotJ novel which is how Luke kicked him down the stairs and it’s what costed him once Luke got the dark amp.

Vader was surprised by Luke's newfound powers, but that doesn't mean he initially held back. Refer to the many quotes above that Vader gave everything he had from the start. Also, note that Luke and Vader circled and probed each other to get a sense of the other's abilities at the start of the fight. Moreover, even after Vader had "bald anger" and "wanted revenge" after Luke kicked him down the stairs, a now-restrained Luke still stonewalled Vader’s attacks, made him tired, and forced him away :

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:"You are unwise to lower your defenses," Vader said, as he brought his lightsaber up fast. With incredible speed, Luke reactivated his weapon to parry Vader's attack. Vader swung again and again, but Luke blocked each blow. Soon, Vader was breathing hard through his respirator. I can't let Luke defeat me, Vader thought. I won't let the Emperor have him!

A precise kick from Luke sent Vader over the edge of the elevated platform. Crashing upon the metal floor below, Vader roared as he felt a cybernetic cable snap in his right leg.

---

Despite all this, Vader still disarmed Luke of his lightsaber and forced him to hide making him far superior to Luke even in this unfair context which means if the fight was truly 50/50, Vader would have effortlessly destroyed Luke even quicker than Kenobi destroyed Maul in Rebels or quicker than Anakin killed the younglings during Order 66.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but Vader never disarmed Luke. And, as noted by even Lucas earlier when he said that Luke didn't "really fight" until the end, the main "unfair context" is that Luke (unlike Vader) held back for most of the fight. Per Vader: The Ultimate Guide, "Vader pressed the attack at every turn, but Luke held back."

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Here's ten quotes commenting on Luke's parity with Vader, in case you haven't seen them:

Star Wars Beware of the Sith wrote:Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

Star Wars Jedi Battles wrote:Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi script wrote:Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi junior novelization wrote:On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor’s throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi adult novelization wrote:For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi comic wrote:On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin's Cloud City, this is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim, and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him.

Star Wars Power of the Myth wrote:"Before he can make peace with his father, Luke must prove that he is a match for him in strength and character."

Star Wars Art Treasures wrote:Vader forces Luke to defend himself. Having completed his training as a Jedi Knight, Luke's powers now already rival his father's, but despite that he refuses to go into attack and deactivates his lightsaber.

Star Wars Return of the Jedi Storybook wrote:Luke’s powers were just as strong as his father’s now, and just as deadly.

George Lucas, Star Wars Featurette - Birth of the Lightsaber wrote:"And then as we go on into the next fight, it becomes more of an equal confrontation."

i mean, they are using lightsabers, making almost all attacks semi or fully lethal. as for something else, didnt luke say vader was becoming more and more of an anakin as the fight went on? and didnt luke's rage grow more and more too? 

and vader going for the kill and saving himself kinda goes against the whole flow of the fight, doesnt it?

Only four of these specify powers, at least two of which ignore Luke's drawing upon the dark side as a contextual amp which is even specified in the novel and shown in the film.

Luke's parity with Vader with a swordsman is without a shadow of a doubt, but his power is not.

luke was faster than him, and vader could still match him, while mentally unstable. thats a clear sign of superior skill

BoD wrote:Only four of these specify powers, at least two of which ignore Luke's drawing upon the dark side as a contextual amp which is even specified in the novel and shown in the film.

Luke's parity with Vader with a swordsman is without a shadow of a doubt, but his power is not.

Luke's not drawing on the dark side for portions of the duel. Two/four quotes is enough when no out-of-universe quotes say the opposite.

The parts where he fights Vader as a complete equal and then gains the upper hand are when he's drawing upon the dark side, as specified by the ROTJ novel:


Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady
with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it
was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life.
Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke
didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He
engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his
cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so
overpowering as to totally obliterate all other
considerations.
 He had the power; the choice was his.
 And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an
ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy
them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.
 It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did
not swoon. Nor did he recoil.
 He took one step forward.


Both of the quotes are missing this pretty critical context. The only time he doesn't draw upon the dark side is when he fights defensively for about 10 seconds in the film before retreating to higher ground when he refuses to fight.