TPM Sidious vs ROTS Dooku

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@Corvinus:

It was refuted on this very page. Why would I copy and paste something on the same page?

Make your own argument, don't just copy paste somebody else's work or defer to their POV.

If you're in a thread, actually read it.

Why do I need to read through an entire thread rather than just stating my POV?

Dooku willingly apprenticed himself to TPM Sidious, and he never caught up to that version of him.

A) Proof he never caught up?

B) That's post boost, not pre boost.

I didn't mean to imply that I would copy and paste their exact argument, I'm saying that my argument would be similar enough because that's just common sense when you read the text of the duel and factor in the circumstances of the duel. I.e. who is actually trying to kill the person they are duelling and who is trying to simply bring the other person back to the light. Then what happens when the latter starts to get serious.

It's on this page. It's just polite to not make a redundant argument if something has been disproven. Especially on the same page. Seriously.

ROTS Dooku never stomped anyone of TPM Maul calibre. A pre-boost Sidious stomped TPM Maul, so you're talking about Dooku apprenticing himself to an even stronger version of the character.

@DarthAdi:

Ok, i remembered it wrong. I had the impression that he blitzed Maul very shortly before TPM. This Sidious can still stomp TPM Maul regardless.

I don't disagree, but Dooku can too.

Revenge Maul is stated to be only as strong as his TPM self. In adition to that he was a bit rusty and not comfortable with his new legs yet.

Proof he was uncomfortable with his new legs?

This version of Maul outmatched Kenobi who at this point is most likely above s3 Ventress.

A) Maul outmatched Kenobi by destabilising him via taunts.

B) Based on what is Kenobi>Ventress?

Proof that there is any significant gap between TCW Dooku and ROTS Dooku?

Contrasting performances against Yoda and quotes on top of that.

None of this is relevant anyway given Sidious didn't blitz Maul, he's just a stomp gap above. And if his performance against the Kenobi/Skywalker duo aboard the IH is any indication Dooku is more than capable of this.

AOTC Dooku did stomp Kenobi, Anakin, Ventress, and was superior to AOTC Windu. He then grew by a good bit up to ROTS. I cannot see Anakin or Obi Wan doing worse than TPM kenobi did against Maul, so its honestly obvious imo. 

ROTS Dooku > AOTC Dooku >>> Obi Wan >> TPM Kenobi < TPM Maul

@Corvinus:

I didn't mean to imply that I would copy and paste their exact argument,

It sure sounded like it.

I'm saying that my argument would be similar enough because that's just common sense when you read the text of the duel and factor in the circumstances of the duel. I.e. who is actually trying to kill the person they are duelling and who is trying to simply bring the other person back to the light.Then what happens when the latter starts to get serious.

Proof Yoda was holding back?

It's on this page. It's just polite to not make a redundant argument if something has been disproven. Especially on the same page. Seriously.

I've got no obligation to address an argument not directed at me simply because you referenced it. You called out my reasons, it's up to you to make points detailing why I'm wrong.

ROTS Dooku never stomped anyone of TPM Maul calibre.

Kenobi comes to mind. And why do we assume that he can't do it simply because he hasn't when contrasting his performances against Yoda with TCW Maul's against Sidious should make it abundantly clear Dooku is well out of Maul's range?

A pre-boost Sidious stomped TPM Maul, so you're talking about Dooku apprenticing himself to an even stronger version of the character.

No clue what you're even trying to say with the second part of that sentence.

The idea of TPM sheev having maxed out his potential is predicated on this quote:

At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one
elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive
translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force
so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into
it, never to return.

However when one looks at the entire passage I think it's blatantly obvious that the sentence(along with the entire passage) is metaphorical and hyperbolic:

A tremor took hold of the planet. Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave,
at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating
through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars
themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one
elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive
translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force
so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into
it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an
ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was
less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic
shift.

So I don't really think it's wise to assume Sheev maxed out his potential as of TPM based on what is likely a figurative passage. So with that said, I think Dooku would be the odds on favorite over TPM Sheev as he's likely closer to RotS sheev than TPM sheev is based on his performances against Sheev's peer Yoda

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@Corvinus:

I didn't mean to imply that I would copy and paste their exact argument,

It sure sounded like it.

I'm saying that my argument would be similar enough because that's just common sense when you read the text of the duel and factor in the circumstances of the duel. I.e. who is actually trying to kill the person they are duelling and who is trying to simply bring the other person back to the light.Then what happens when the latter starts to get serious.

Proof Yoda was holding back?

It's on this page. It's just polite to not make a redundant argument if something has been disproven. Especially on the same page. Seriously.

I've got no obligation to address an argument not directed at me simply because you referenced it. You called out my reasons, it's up to you to make points detailing why I'm wrong.

ROTS Dooku never stomped anyone of TPM Maul calibre.

Kenobi comes to mind. And why do we assume that he can't do it simply because he hasn't when contrasting his performances against Yoda with TCW Maul's against Sidious should make it abundantly clear Dooku is well out of Maul's range.

A pre-boost Sidious stomped TPM Maul, so you're talking about Dooku apprenticing himself to an even stronger version of the character.

No clue what you're even trying to say with the second part of that sentence.

Lol ok. Taking something out of context in an effort to demean anything else I say on the matter.


It's in the text itself. Yoda is not trying to kill Dooku. It therefore stands to reason that he is holding back since when he did fight seriously Dooku quickly retreated.


I wouldn't call that a stomp. Dooku also had foreknowledge of Obi-Wan's fighting style while the same couldn't be said for the reverse. As to Dooku replicating Sidious' feat, the same Savage Opress that Sidious casually stomped has put Dooku on his ass before.


You mentioned that was a pre-boost Sidious, I am simply stating that Dooku became his apprentice post-boost.

@Corvinus

It's in the text itself. Yoda is not trying to kill Dooku. It therefore stands to reason that he is holding back since when he did fight seriously Dooku quickly retreated.

Yoda defending himself for the first portion of the duel doesn't mean he wasn't trying to kill Dooku or wasn't taking it seriously. He was wearing Dooku out so he could claim victory when going on the offence, during which he tries to drive a saber through Dooku's skull.

Dooku also had foreknowledge of Obi-Wan's fighting style while the same couldn't be said for the reverse.

Dooku was used to Kenobi's ataru but partway through the duel Kenobi alters to soresu which doesn't do him a bit of good given Dooku removes him from the fight twice over with the force whilst simultaneously dealing with an enraged Anakin.

As to Dooku replicating Sidious' feat, the same Savage Opress that Sidious casually stomped has put Dooku on his ass before.

Dooku's powers far eclipsed Ventress and Savage combined per SW.com and during the duel Dooku thoroughly outclasses both of them. Savage's disarm is an inconsistency, he failed to do the same against Ventress under more favourable circumstances, somebody who Dooku has manhandled with strength.

You mentioned that was a pre-boost Sidious, I am simply stating that Dooku became his apprentice post-boost.

Can you read? I explicitly mentioned it was post boost?

@DC77 (Reborn):

Proof he was uncomfortable with his knew legs.

Is evident from the episode. Initially Maul struggles to even stand up. This is also suported by Filoni

Rebels Force Radio 2013 wrote:So Sam and I were excited to really give Maul dimension, but to show his thought process, to show that he was a good apprentice to Sidious, a cunning apprentice, cause in the end it makes him a lot more dangerous cause we already know he can fight, but we’re not clear if he can fight as well as he used to, given that he is you know half cybernetic now - like anyone recovering you kind of lean on your other skills, and in this case he has become a bit more of an architect.

Furthermore, Maul's fighthing style uses acrobatics a lot. Is obvious that the awkward chiken legs will hinder him as can be very clearly seen from the episode. This also the reason why Filoni decided to give him new legs for the Mandalore arc, so he can perform his  acrobatics again.

A) Maul outmatched Kenobi by destabilising him via taunts.

Taunts are part of fighting. Dooku uses them all the time too.

B) Based on what is Kenobi>Ventress?

For the first few seasons Kenobi and Ventress were mostly equals (it can be argued that Kenobi was actually better). It's logic that s4 Kenobi>S3 Ventress

Contrasting performances against Yoda and quotes on top of that

.

What do you mean? When was ROTS Dooku fought Yoda. His best (non amped) performance against Yoda was in AOTC.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@Corvinus

It's in the text itself. Yoda is not trying to kill Dooku. It therefore stands to reason that he is holding back since when he did fight seriously Dooku quickly retreated.

Yoda defending himself for the first portion of the duel doesn't mean he wasn't trying to kill Dooku or wasn't taking it seriously. He was wearing Dooku out so he could claim victory when going on the offence, during which he tries to drive a saber through Dooku's skull.

Dooku also had foreknowledge of Obi-Wan's fighting style while the same couldn't be said for the reverse.

Dooku was used to Kenobi's ataru but partway through the duel Kenobi alters to soresu which doesn't do him a bit of good given Dooku removes him from the fight twice over with the force whilst simultaneously dealing with an enraged Anakin.

As to Dooku replicating Sidious' feat, the same Savage Opress that Sidious casually stomped has put Dooku on his ass before.

Dooku's powers far eclipsed Ventress and Savage combined per SW.com and during the duel Dooku thoroughly outclasses both of them. Savage's disarm is an inconsistency, he failed to do the same against Ventress under more favourable circumstances, somebody who Dooku has manhandled with strength.

You mentioned that was a pre-boost Sidious, I am simply stating that Dooku became his apprentice post-boost.

Can you read? I explicitly mentioned it was post boost?

Yeah, it kinda does. The whole point of Yoda seeking out Dooku was to convince him to come back to the light. He wouldn't logically then fight to kill him, which the text agrees with. He only defended himself and didn't try to attack, sure, which is a tactic you use when you don't want to hurt somebody. Once he tires of Dooku's tantrum as it were - that's grow bored of it, not getting physically tired - he then pulls a move to show Dooku he could kill him if necessary. At which point Dooku beats a hasty retreat.

Dooku resorted to using the Force to drive someone back when he can't do the same using purely his lightsaber. A tried and true tactic of Dooku's.

At different points in the war, sure. Savage Opress by the time he fought Sidious was far stronger than at any point when Dooku fought him     and Sidious did vastly better than Dooku managed.

As to the last, I admit upon looking back I may have misread that.

@DarthAdi:

Is evident from the episode. Initially Maul struggles to even stand up.

The key part of that statement being initially. Maul showed no signs of being hindered in his duel against Kenobi.

This is also suported by Filoni

Filoni doesn't say the legs hindered him, he just says it's not clear whether Maul's operating at the same calibre of swordsmanship. Direct me to where the words "not clear" imply a definitive handicap. More to the point however, Filoni says Maul can compensate by leaning on other advantages.

Taunts are part of fighting. Dooku uses them all the time too.

They aren't related to the topic of power/skill that's being discussed, nor can Maul hope to have similar success against an enemy that doesn't share the same personal history with him that was so prevalent in his ability to off balance Kenobi.

For the first few seasons Kenobi and Ventress were mostly equals (it can be argued that Kenobi was actually better). It's logic that s4 Kenobi>S3 Ventress

Ventress improved substantially following their duels in the early CW time period.

What do you mean? When was ROTS Dooku fought Yoda. His best (non amped) performance against Yoda was in AOTC.

Dooku's performance against Yoda as of YDR surpasses his one in the AOTC showdown by a significant margin.

@Corvinus:

Yeah, it kinda does. The whole point of Yoda seeking out Dooku was to convince him to come back to the light.

Which it was pretty obvious wasn't gonna happen by the time it came to a clash of blades.

He only defended himself and didn't try to attack, sure, which is a tactic you use when you don't want to hurt somebody. Once he tires of Dooku's tantrum as it were - that's grow bored of it, not getting physically tired - he then pulls a move to show Dooku he could kill him if necessary.

It's also a tactic you use to wear out your opponent, which it's fairly clear was Yoda's intent given once Dooku's softened up enough he drives him back with the intent to kill.

Dooku resorted to using the Force to drive someone back when he can't do the same using purely his lightsaber. A tried and true tactic of Dooku's.

A) Proof he couldn't do so using a saber?

B) Dooku has the force in any fight, his ability to skillfully exploit lapses in Kenobi's defences via telekenisis is relevant to his overall combat prowess.

At different points in the war, sure. Savage Opress by the time he fought Sidious was far stronger than at any point when Dooku fought him and Sidious did vastly better than Dooku managed.

Considering Savage was amped when fighting Dooku that's not necessarily the case. And Sidious doing better only indicates superiority, not vast superiority. Moreover, you seem to have ignored my point about inconsistencies so I'll take that as a silent concession.

As to the last, I admit upon looking back I may have misread that.

Good. Maybe learn to read my posts more carefully next time you attempt (And fail) to refute them.

@DC77 (Reborn)

More to the point however, Filoni says Maul can compensate by leaning on other advantages.

Filoni is clearly talking about Maul's ability to scheme. He even clarifies that the other advantage is his skill as an architect, ergo Maul can avoid fighting through planning and manipulation. This has no correlation with his ability to fight being diminished.

The notion that Dooku would stomp TPM Maul on the basis of how he has treated Kenobi is a ridiculous self destructive argument given that Dooku has only stomped Kenobi in duel when he is using a version of Ataru that stinks of Qui-Gon Jinn, who Dooku has unique encyclopaedic knowledge of thanks to having hundreds, if not thousands of sparring matches with Jinn. Kenobi was also already fatigued from the battle in the Geonosis arena according to the AotC junior novel IIRC.

@NotAA3:

Filoni is clearly talking about Maul's ability to scheme. He even clarifies that the other advantage is his skill as an architect, ergo Maul can avoid fighting through planning and manipulation. This has no correlation with his ability to fight being diminished.

Pay attention to the terminology. It says skills, ie multiple. It's not solely referencing Maul's abilities as an architect, that's just one of many skills he's decided to lean on.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@NotAA3:

Filoni is clearly talking about Maul's ability to scheme. He even clarifies that the other advantage is his skill as an architect, ergo Maul can avoid fighting through planning and manipulation. This has no correlation with his ability to fight being diminished.

Pay attention to the terminology. It says skills, ie multiple. It's not solely referencing Maul's abilities as an architect, that's just one of many skills he's decided to lean on.

Yeah, but as an example, the kind of skills that are referenced is his manipulation abilities clearly distinguishing these so-called advantages that can compensate as non-combative, they're ways Maul can avoid a fight, due to the pre-established weakness as Filoni says. You have 0 reasons to believe any of these additional compensation skills are combat-based.

@NotAA3:

Yeah, but as an example, the kind of skills that are referenced is his manipulation abilities clearly distinguishing these so-called advantages that can compensate as non-combative, they're ways Maul can avoid a fight, due to the pre-established weakness as Filoni says. You have 0 reasons to believe any of these additional compensation skills are combat-based.

The fact that a non combative example was provided doesn't mean that the skills have to be non combative in nature, especially given the context is referencing how Maul can compensate for his potentially bothersome cybernetics, which leads me to believe that the overall point would contain more than just ways to avoid a fight.

KingofBlades wrote:The idea of TPM sheev having maxed out his potential is predicated on this quote:

At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one
elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive
translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force
so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into
it, never to return.

However when one looks at the entire passage I think it's blatantly obvious that the sentence(along with the entire passage) is metaphorical and hyperbolic:

A tremor took hold of the planet. Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave,
at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating
through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars
themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one
elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive
translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force
so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into
it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an
ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was
less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic
shift.

So I don't really think it's wise to assume Sheev maxed out his potential as of TPM based on what is likely a figurative passage. So with that said, I think Dooku would be the odds on favorite over TPM Sheev as he's likely closer to RotS sheev than TPM sheev is based on his performances against Sheev's peer Yoda

We actually agree on something for once.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@NotAA3:

Yeah, but as an example, the kind of skills that are referenced is his manipulation abilities clearly distinguishing these so-called advantages that can compensate as non-combative, they're ways Maul can avoid a fight, due to the pre-established weakness as Filoni says. You have 0 reasons to believe any of these additional compensation skills are combat-based.

The fact that a non combative example was provided doesn't mean that the skills have to be non combative in nature, especially given the context is referencing how Maul can compensate for his potentially bothersome cybernetics, which leads me to believe that the overall point would contain more than just ways to avoid a fight.

Uh, in this case, yes it does. The quote talks about how generally when people recover they lean on other skills for support - the word recover clearly implies Maul's loss of his legs is a detriment to his fighting skill - and then says in this specific case Maul has become an architect to compensate, ergo it's clearly referring to his scheming as the way he compensates for not being able to fight. The fact that it mentions skills as plural is in a general recovery scenario (not specific to Maul), in this specific instance, these skills are non-combative.

Moreover, the fact that Maul leans on other skills for support does not indicate they completely compensate, and given that the word recover is used (as I mentioned), they clearly don't.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@Corvinus:

Yeah, it kinda does. The whole point of Yoda seeking out Dooku was to convince him to come back to the light.

Which it was pretty obvious wasn't gonna happen by the time it came to a clash of blades.

He only defended himself and didn't try to attack, sure, which is a tactic you use when you don't want to hurt somebody. Once he tires of Dooku's tantrum as it were - that's grow bored of it, not getting physically tired - he then pulls a move to show Dooku he could kill him if necessary.

It's also a tactic you use to wear out your opponent, which it's fairly clear was Yoda's intent given once Dooku's softened up enough he drives him back with the intent to kill.

Dooku resorted to using the Force to drive someone back when he can't do the same using purely his lightsaber. A tried and true tactic of Dooku's.

A) Proof he couldn't do so using a saber?

B) Dooku has the force in any fight, his ability to skillfully exploit lapses in Kenobi's defences  via telekenisis is relevant to his overall combat prowess.

At different points in the war, sure. Savage Opress by the time he fought Sidious was far stronger than at any point when Dooku fought him and Sidious did vastly better than Dooku managed.

Considering Savage was amped when fighting Dooku that's not necessarily the case. And Sidious doing better only indicates superiority, not vast superiority. Moreover, you seem to have ignored my point about inconsistencies so I'll take that as a silent concession.

As to the last, I admit upon looking back I may have misread that.

Good. Maybe learn to read my posts more carefully next time you attempt (And fail) to refute them.

Obvious it may be, it's the attempt that matters. It shows Yoda's mindset, which leads nicely onto your second point.

Yoda wasn't trying to kill him. This means he wasn't going all out. We can see what that actually entails when Yoda suddenly goes from defence to attack and nearly one shots Dooku.

No concession on my part lol. I actually addressed that. They take place at different parts of the war, and Dooku is a lot more familiar with Savage's fighting style later on. This also debunks the "inconsistent" argument. Compare that to Sidious facing the strongest version of Savage without the same familiarity of his moves and it makes no difference to Sidious. He handles the strength of his blows without problem and toys with him until finally finishing him off with contemptible ease.

Who does that anyway, attempting to end an argument by accepting non-existent concessions?

Lmao to your last point. There was nothing even being refuted on that note.

@Corvinus:

Obvious it may be, it's the attempt that matters. It shows Yoda's mindset, which leads nicely onto your second point.

It shows his intent when there was still a chance, that's fundamentally distinct from his mindset in the actual duel, which as I've noted prior was lethal (He clearly drives him back intending to kill him).

Yoda wasn't trying to kill him. This means he wasn't going all out.

This is based on nothing. Let's choose:

>Yoda attempts to convert Dooku, but by the time it was obvious that wasn't going to happen adopts lethal intent and uses defence to soften him up, then offence to kill.
>In spite of the obvious fact that he can't be saved Yoda wants to spare Dooku's life in the duel for the first part (Hence using defence) and then for some retarded, unknown reason switches to offence mid fight (As opposed to when it became clear Dooku was beyond saving).

First one seems far more reasonable but maybe that's just me.

We can see what that actually entails when Yoda suddenly goes from defence to attack and nearly one shots Dooku.

Quote? Regardless we can attribute that to Dooku's surprise given he fairs well against Yoda's continued offence.

They take place at different parts of the war, and Dooku is a lot more familiar with Savage's fighting style later on. This also debunks the "inconsistent" argument.

A) Savage fighting Sheev later doesn't necessitate that he be stronger than when he fought Dooku (Where he was demonstrably amped).

B) It doesn't debunk the inconsistent argument.

gotta go for dooku as of now tbh. if sheev lets him get close, his TCW beard might blind sheev.

Palpatine because he's the most powerful Sith master off all time in TPM era (at least Banite Sith).

Palpatine in a good fight I suppose

Sidious.

In regards to the Vjun argument. They both may have been drawing on the nexus however Yoda was fighting against negative emotions while Dooku fully embraced his, it's he who has the psychological advantage. Case in point, Maul triggered a Kenobi into a rage which made him more powerful and allowed him to drive Maul back but it also unbalanced him making him easier to counter. Mace was also able to draw on Haruun Kal's nexus when in Vaapad but at the risk of drawing closer to the dark side, thus the mental struggle.

Even when Dooku fought with reckless abandon - which is a very powerful boost which allowed Kenobi to fight evenly for a time with Maul and Llokay to drive back Bane - Yoda still was the one driving Dooku back.

So really at the end of the day Dooku with a psychological advantage and fighting with reckless abandon was still outclassed by Yoda the entire way. Sidious lost the duel to Yoda too but it was back and forth and he actually held the inital advantage before Yoda rallied and took the lead.