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MPModerator | Champion of Darkness
Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 12:15 pm
It’s time to truly decide who is the better combatant.
The Adventurous JediLevel Seven
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 12:21 pm
YVH Cilghal wrote:Jinn solidly
NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 12:32 pm
NotAA3 wrote:YVH Cilghal wrote:Jinn solidly
PeraltaEagle45
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 12:50 pm
Depends on how much you think Maul grew from TPM to TCW. I'll say Jinn takes it.
HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 1:01 pm
Fisto imo. I doubt Qui-Gon's Ataru could match Fisto's Shii-Cho.
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 1:11 pm
Nick flat out said Jinn was higher on the tiering system. What's there to discuss?
@HellfireUnit Reasons?
@HellfireUnit Reasons?
- HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 1:26 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Nick flat out said Jinn was higher on the tiering system. What's there to discuss?
@HellfireUnit Reasons?
Due to Fisto's mastery of Shii-Cho. Qui-Gon's physicals never impressed me and being over his prime doesn't help him either. His agility doesn't scale well with Ataru imo.
Besides that, when did Gillard confirm Jinn being higher on the tier system? If you refer to the mail screenshots, I don't think that is legit. Other than that, Mace is lower than Anakin in tier system but that doesn't mean he'd lose against the Chosen One.
- The Adventurous JediLevel Seven
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 1:31 pm
Mace would lose against Anakin lol.
- HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 1:32 pm
NotAA3 wrote:Mace would lose against Anakin lol.
Reasons?
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 1:38 pm
Due to Fisto's mastery of Shii-Cho. Qui-Gon's physicals never impressed me and being over his prime doesn't help him either. His agility doesn't scale well with Ataru imo.
Fisto has no physical feats on the level of Jinn going blow for blow with Maul before his stamina began to flag.
Besides that, when did Gillard confirm Jinn being higher on the tier system? If you refer to the mail screenshots, I don't think that is legit. Other than that, Mace is lower than Anakin in tier system but that doesn't mean he'd lose against the Chosen One.
A) Anakin is superior to Windu.
B) https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11135/111353555/6881302-nick_gillard_jinn_fisto_email.jpg
Reynard (Ethanion)
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 1:49 pm
How legitimate are the tiers referring to TPM?
"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."
When he started, he figured someone like Kit Fisto would be a 7. Kit Fisto was created after TPM. So if Kit Fisto was his metric, the tiers did not exist when he did the choreography for TPM.
"The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. 'Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is,' says Gillard. 'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."
Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he?s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn?t gone beyond him mentally.
Source: http://www.theforce.net/videogames/story/Nick_Gillard_Talks_ROTS_Game_92147.asp
Yet is an implied 5 in AOTC here, or perhaps a 4 if we are talking about the Anakin at the beginning or Revenge of the Sith. Also notice the probably, meaning that it is an estimation.
And just in case you remain unconvinced, he talks about how he upped the ante and took the fights and choreography far more seriously.
What was the most difficult fight sequence in any Star Wars movie?
The first one, because it had been so long since the last movie?I may have been a bit flippant. I liked the fight with Obi-Wan and Darth Maul, but some seven years on, it?s evolved so much. I?ve taken it so much more seriously. I understand it much better, so once I got to Obi-Wan versus Anakin, I really let it rip. But also keep it so true. On The Phantom Menace, it?s the first time we?ve seen them fight that well. But by this last one, I think we had it in the bag?everybody knew how they should be. Everybody knew how it should look. There?s so much pressure as well, because millions of fans also know how it should look, and you?ve got to try to stay true for them too.
Source: http://www.theforce.net/videogames/story/Nick_Gillard_Talks_ROTS_Game_92147.asp
To me, it appears as though all the evidence supports the idea that the tiers in TPM were added posthumously, so I do not think we can use those scores and say they are 100% word of god, though the tiers in ROTS are different.
But my tier system
"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."
When he started, he figured someone like Kit Fisto would be a 7. Kit Fisto was created after TPM. So if Kit Fisto was his metric, the tiers did not exist when he did the choreography for TPM.
"The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. 'Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is,' says Gillard. 'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."
Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html
Anakin is a seven in AOTC here.Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he?s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn?t gone beyond him mentally.
Source: http://www.theforce.net/videogames/story/Nick_Gillard_Talks_ROTS_Game_92147.asp
Yet is an implied 5 in AOTC here, or perhaps a 4 if we are talking about the Anakin at the beginning or Revenge of the Sith. Also notice the probably, meaning that it is an estimation.
And just in case you remain unconvinced, he talks about how he upped the ante and took the fights and choreography far more seriously.
What was the most difficult fight sequence in any Star Wars movie?
The first one, because it had been so long since the last movie?I may have been a bit flippant. I liked the fight with Obi-Wan and Darth Maul, but some seven years on, it?s evolved so much. I?ve taken it so much more seriously. I understand it much better, so once I got to Obi-Wan versus Anakin, I really let it rip. But also keep it so true. On The Phantom Menace, it?s the first time we?ve seen them fight that well. But by this last one, I think we had it in the bag?everybody knew how they should be. Everybody knew how it should look. There?s so much pressure as well, because millions of fans also know how it should look, and you?ve got to try to stay true for them too.
Source: http://www.theforce.net/videogames/story/Nick_Gillard_Talks_ROTS_Game_92147.asp
To me, it appears as though all the evidence supports the idea that the tiers in TPM were added posthumously, so I do not think we can use those scores and say they are 100% word of god, though the tiers in ROTS are different.
But my tier system
- HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 2:03 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Due to Fisto's mastery of Shii-Cho. Qui-Gon's physicals never impressed me and being over his prime doesn't help him either. His agility doesn't scale well with Ataru imo.
Fisto has no physical feats on the level of Jinn going blow for blow with Maul before his stamina began to flag.
Besides that, when did Gillard confirm Jinn being higher on the tier system? If you refer to the mail screenshots, I don't think that is legit. Other than that, Mace is lower than Anakin in tier system but that doesn't mean he'd lose against the Chosen One.
A) Anakin is superior to Windu.
B) https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11135/111353555/6881302-nick_gillard_jinn_fisto_email.jpg
A ) In terms of raw power, sure. However is he as experienced and knowledgeable as Windu? Hell no. Windu is a sword master. Anakin's rage based strikes would not be able to beat Windu rather empower him due to Vaapad. Also there is the Shatterpoint factor. I don't see Anakin winning against Windu in any conceivable way. Anakin being more skilled wouldn't carry him to victory. Even KF Anakin couldn't overpower Obi-Wan who is weaker than Windu in both saber combat and Force Power. No way any version of pre-suit Anakin would defeat Windu and I am willing to debate it.
B ) You know it is extremely easy to manipulate a mail and change the texts? Maybe the guy who posted it changed it in order to prove his point, who knows? Unless there is a direct statement or interview from Gillard, that mail isn't legit under any circumstances. Hell, I can even do the same if I had a computer and even write "Agen Kolar is tier 10".
- Reynard (Ethanion)
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 2:08 pm
Find me examples of Jinn doing stuff like this to Kenobi, or a source that says Maul did stuff like this to Kenobi but not Jinn, and then Jinn versus Kit might be a debate worth having.
Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other’s defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan’s more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery.
For hours the two danced without music, at first falling into a preplanned series of moves and countermoves learned in the Temple under Master Yoda’s tutelage. As they grew more accustomed to each other’s rhythms, they progressed into a flowing web of spontaneous engagement. Slowly, minute by minute, they increased pace, stuttered the rhythm, increasing the acuteness of attack angles and beginning to utilize feints and distractions, binds, rapid changes in level, and to introduce random environmental elements into the interaction:, furniture, walls, slippery floors. To an observer it would have seemed that the two were trying to slaughter each other, but the two knew that they were engaged in the most profound and enjoyable aspect of Jedi play, lightsaber flow.
Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other’s defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan’s more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery.
For hours the two danced without music, at first falling into a preplanned series of moves and countermoves learned in the Temple under Master Yoda’s tutelage. As they grew more accustomed to each other’s rhythms, they progressed into a flowing web of spontaneous engagement. Slowly, minute by minute, they increased pace, stuttered the rhythm, increasing the acuteness of attack angles and beginning to utilize feints and distractions, binds, rapid changes in level, and to introduce random environmental elements into the interaction:, furniture, walls, slippery floors. To an observer it would have seemed that the two were trying to slaughter each other, but the two knew that they were engaged in the most profound and enjoyable aspect of Jedi play, lightsaber flow.
The Cestus Deception
Kit accelerated into a blur of motion complex and rapid enough to baffle even Obi-Wan’s experienced gaze.The Cestus Deception
Ziggy
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 4:16 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Nick flat out said Jinn was higher on the tiering system. What's there to discuss?
@HellfireUnit Reasons?
First of all, why you stealing my personal avi?
Second, there is contention regarding how much of this comes from the mind of Lucas as oppose to Gillard's own thoughts.
Gillard worked on a system of tiers with Lucas to better help him choreograph the fights for each film. So I really doubt there is an unseen list that compares Qui Gon jinn - who's fighting career ends in TPM - with Fisto - who is conceptualised afterwards and first seen in Attack of the Clones.
Gillard is mostly credited because we get a purview into Lucas' head. But that wouldn't preclude him form having his own ideas. Which aren't canon and are ignorant of the EU. In 2015, the guy boasted ignorantly about how he created the lightsaber forms mistaking them with the vaunted tier list he an Lucas used. His personal opinions aren't worth dick.
CuckedCurryLevel Four
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 4:39 pm
Not to mention Nick was on holiday at the time and just wanted Meatpants to piss off 
- Reynard (Ethanion)
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 8:34 pm
For curiosity’s sake, why is Jinn being supported?
What argument makes you think that?
What argument makes you think that?
O-Siri
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 3rd 2019, 8:51 pm
Gillard's rankings in regards to the other characters are reliable because a large part of their current standings relative to one another is determined by their feats in the movies. Fisto's standing, on the other hand, is largely shaped by the EU, which I highly doubt Gillard or Lucas used to influence their depiction of the Nautolan. All he did in the movies was survive Geonosis and get promoted to the Jedi Council. It's understandable he wouldn't get a particularly high ranking relative to the main characters. Gillard himself is considered reliable not because he rankings are canon per se but because he worked closely with Lucas and actually wrote at least some of the fights. This doesn't apply to the EU where he has no part of. Fisto's feats are just better when all is taken into account. Jinn is superior to TPM Kenobi but not by an enormous amount. Kit Fisto is solidly superior to 36-year-old Kenobi.
- CuckedCurryLevel Four
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 4th 2019, 3:14 am
Kilius wrote:Fisto's feats are just better when all is taken into account. Jinn is superior to TPM Kenobi but not by an enormous amount. Kit Fisto is solidly superior to 36-year-old Kenobi.
- LOTL
Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto
August 4th 2019, 3:19 am
Kilius wrote:Gillard's rankings in regards to the other characters are reliable because a large part of their current standings relative to one another is determined by their feats in the movies. Fisto's standing, on the other hand, is largely shaped by the EU, which I highly doubt Gillard or Lucas used to influence their depiction of the Nautolan. All he did in the movies was survive Geonosis and get promoted to the Jedi Council. It's understandable he wouldn't get a particularly high ranking relative to the main characters. Gillard himself is considered reliable not because he rankings are canon per se but because he worked closely with Lucas and actually wrote at least some of the fights. This doesn't apply to the EU where he has no part of. Fisto's feats are just better when all is taken into account. Jinn is superior to TPM Kenobi but not by an enormous amount. Kit Fisto is solidly superior to 36-year-old Kenobi.
34 year old Kenobi
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