SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthBane77)

Exceptional post, Az.

@darthbane77 Just making sure you remember you have two days to post.

I've been informed that darthbane77 has been unable to post due to circumstances outside his control. As such, he will be granted an extension.

[[Cade Skywalker casually throws a rather big ship a great distance (Legacy # 5). He did this while high on death sticks, which dampened his connection to the Force (Legacy # 3). The Jedi then remove the death sticks out of his system and re-train him in the ways of the Force (Legacy # 11). Cade also receives additional training from the Sith (Legacy # 17). He is put into the Embrace of Pain where he learns to focus his anger into a weapon of the dark side (Legacy # 18), as can be seen from his prior failure and consequent success to perceive just how messed up Darth Krayt’s body truly is (Legacy # 19). He should thus be far more powerful when he got stalemated by Darth Stryfe in a telekinetic war than when he tossed the ship (Legacy # 31). The gap between Stryfe and Krayt is detailed in my third post to ArkhamAsylum3.]]

I’m not terribly sure of what the relevance of this is. Are you suggesting that throwing a ship is beyond Revan’s capabilities? And how much are you suggesting that Cade grew from that point to his duel with Krayt? Revan’s own power growth over the course of KotOR is more than enough to justify the claim that merely throwing a ship is well within Revan’s abilities to replicate. If you want to insinuate that Revan can’t replicate the feat (as you have here) you’re also insinuating that Darth Malak, Exar Kun, Ulic-Qel Droma, and every other Jedi and Sith (barring Vitiate) throughout all of history is also incapable of replicating a basic showing of telekinesis. As Revan’s scaling from Malak from Kun makes him the most powerful mortal Force user in history up to that point, again, barring Vitiate.


Revan also has comparable feats himself. During his confrontation on the Foundry, he was capable of casually throwing meteors, and did so to several of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=579GbnTtqX4

[[I might as well say “This is a level of power [Revan] has never demonstrated being capable of using” like you did. Except that because the feats in the exhibits are entirely different in nature to Thon’s and therefore fundamentally disparate, you can’t say one is superior to the other. And besides that, I have issues with the way you’ve presented Thon’s feat.]]

The feats themselves may not be directly comparable, but each one is indicative of far different levels of power that CAN be compared. Hammering a nail into a post and a rocket forcing a shuttle into space are vastly different events, but one clearly requires a vast degree more energy/force to achieve. The same can be applied here.

[[I’m not sure if you’re implying Thon was continuously exerting himself to keep the Sith spirits trapped, but if so, that’s blatantly untrue as the dark side remained trapped in Lake Natth ”forever”, even thousands of years after his death.]]

Let me clarify. I’m not saying that Thon was actively keeping Ambria’s nexus contained. I’m saying his power and his power alone, imprisoning that energy “forever” or, in other words, “indefinitely”, is indicative of the potency of Thon’s powers. Basically, Thon’s power>>>the power of arguably the most powerful conventional dark side nexus in galactic history.

[[What is even meant by ”consume” in this context? Physically eating the system? Killing all life there? Assimilating the physical matter into their being? We don’t really know what the Sith spirits were even going to do, and we have no timeframe for it - that they ”threatened” to consume the system doesn’t mean they could have done so instantaneously; for all we know it might have taken them hundreds of years to accomplish.]]

How long it would take for those to occur is irrelevant, the fact the dark side energies were this potent is the point. The nexus in question is one that is disproportionately powerful to any other conventional dark side nexus in the mythos. Jedi Historians eventually agreed that the ritual on Ambria required more dark side power than any other dark Force user had ever called on before.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7058265-ambrianexus.png

This potentially implies that the nexus of Ambria was a more powerful source of Dark Side energy than the nexus created by Vitiate on Medriaas, the same nexus that he absorbed, which granted him his immortality and his status as the most powerful Dark Side user in the Old Republic era.

[[Krayt stomped the Knights. Him having poor stamina doesn’t mean he was having difficulty with them, at all. And he only got burned out after he stopped exerting himself; he can keep up a fight for far longer than a few seconds even seven years later when his condition is much worse against Cade Skywalker. The fatigue only catches up to him after the fight is over, which is completely normal if you’ve ever heard of adrenaline. This doesn’t cap Krayt in the slightest.]]

I don’t believe I ever claimed that Krayt didn’t stomp them. My point was that the fight clearly and undeniably exhausted him. Krayt would be forced to devote a far greater deal of energy to fighting Revan than he had to against a few measly Imperial Knights. Fatigue would catch up with Krayt eventually, as he can’t simply fight indefinitely without tiring, and as Revan’s own shows of stamina indicate, he can fight off wave after wave of amped enemy soldiers, while himself notably hindered, and then continue on to face the second most powerful Sith Lord in history up to that point, and defeat him.

This analogy should help clarify my meaning.

If someone is chasing you with weapon. If you’re in appropriate shape, your natural abilities and adrenaline should let you run a mile away before you get tired, if your life depends on it. However, if you’re already tired/tiring a dozen meters into your run, chances are that you won’t be able to keep up a good pace for the whole run, and your performance will drop sharply before you get anywhere close to reaching that one mile.

This applies to Krayt, who is well below the physical shape he should be in (as seen through the quotes I provided), and was exhausted after stomping just a few, comparatively fodder, Imperial Knights. Unless Krayt is capable of taking Revan down nigh immediately, there’s no reason, based on his performance against the Knights, to presume that Krayt can run a marathon with Revan, when he can’t even run twelve meters.

[[Your own source says the coral seeds only began to consume him towards the end of the Sith-Imperial War (around Legacy # 1), meaning they hadn’t affected him prior to that. This helps my argument and actively damages yours.]]

You seem to have misread the quote. The quote states that Krayt declares himself emperor by the end of the war, not that the seeds don’t begin to consume him until that point. The text goes on to say that healing trances and Force healing begin to work less, meaning these practices were in use already to keep Krayt alive. This means that Krayt’s issues with the seeds overtaking him have been present for some time, and are not a new or sudden occurrence, as you claim. So the quote damages my argument “only in your mind, my very young apprentice.”

[[That quote in no way indicates he had been losing power before 130 ABY, only that he had wanted to restore his power for a long time as of 137 ABY. A “long time” doesn’t have to be longer than seven years.]]

You’d be right if it weren’t for the fact that the Coral Seeds were already weakening Krayt prior to the end of Sith-Imperial War, as I just went over in the above counter. Because the seeds were weakening him prior to the end of the war, and he still hadn’t found a cure by 137 ABY, and was looking for a way to restore his power, it’s rather clear that this weakening had begun prior to 130 ABY, and continued on for the next seven years.

[[You have no proof those Imperial Knights were average (one of them was of Skywalker descent), not that it matters since Krayt didn’t struggle with them in any capacity. The conclusion you’re drawing doesn’t even make any sense within the context of the rest of the story: just look at how far Krayt scales in his own series and there’s no way he would have trouble with average Jedi Knights. You cannot establish a comparison between Revan and Krayt based on that. The comparison I drew with Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious, however, has gone unrefuted aside from a few jabs at Kenobi.]]

None of the Imperial Knights present here were definitively of Skywalker descent. Being a cousin of Roan Fel does not equate to being a descendant of Jaina Solo, or any related to her by blood. Unless you can prove that Fel’s cousin here was born of Skywalker blood, your objection holds no weight.


That Krayt scales far above Wyyrlok is not what’s being questioned here. What I’m questioning is Krayt’s ability to use that power for an extended period of time. Note that even Palpatine suffered from something similar to what Krayt is going through, in “Empire’s End.”

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7060268-empire%27send1.png


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7060267-empire%27send2.png


Though Sidious’ case is arguably more extreme than Krayt’s, the same general rule applies. Palpatine/Krayt possess immense power, but are incapable of using it properly because of their hindrances.

[[If I can prove Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Tyranus were rivals onboard the Invisible Hand in Revenge of the Sith, that is evidence in itself and I won’t need to address the duel that took place months before Revenge of the Sith.]]

“If” being the operative word. You’ve yet to actually do so.

[[Kenobi was tired as well as articulated in my response to ArkhamAsylum3. Dooku, however, replenished his Force reserves just prior to telekinetically pushing Kenobi in the very quote you cited. You wouldn’t have brought up the Count’s fatigue if you didn’t think it was significant, so the same standard should be applied to Kenobi too. A fresh Dooku pushing an exhausted Kenobi isn’t valid evidence of him being able to do so to a fresh Kenobi.

Even if it were, these sort of defensive lapses are extremely common. Allow me cite my favorite example:]]

Dooku was fending off both Skywalker and Kenobi at the same time, and thus should have been tiring more than Kenobi, who was being aided by Skywalker, and was facing only Dooku. The odds were against Dooku, yet Kenobi was still overpowered twice by Dooku, the same thing occurred in the duel from TCW.

A. Dooku was fighting off two powerful Jedi simultaneously, and tired the same as Kenobi.
B. Dooku was fighting off two powerful Jedi simultaneously, and tired more than Kenobi.
C. Kenobi, aided and focused on a single enemy, tired more quickly than Dooku.

Either way, Dooku is demonstrably superior, which means your claim that Kenobi and Dooku are equals is complete bunk.

Also, the text does not say Dooku replenished himself prior to ragdolling Kenobi for the second time.






“He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn’t have time to enjoy it.”

-RotS Novel



All this quote is saying is that Dooku drew on the Force, and then kek’d Kenobi. There’s nothing special going on here outside of Dooku demonstrating his superiority. Even assuming you are right, and that Dooku replenished himself, it doesn’t matter, as Skywalker was on him as soon as it happened, exhausted Dooku to the point he could hardly see, and then proceeded to kek Kenobi yet again.



“Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku’s defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he’d used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he’d best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.”

-RotS Novelization.



So a tiring Dooku ragdolled a tiring Kenobi, and then an exhausted Dooku ragdolled Kenobi a second time.

On top of that….



“These clowns might-just possibly-actually be able to beat him.


No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.”

- RotS Novelization



[size=13]The above quote implies that a short series of events happened.

1: Kenobi and Skywalker proved to be a legitimate threat.
2: Dooku decided to stop toying around.
3: Dooku initiated his first ragdoll of Kenobi.

Which in itself implies that Dooku simply decided “this party’s over” and dispatched Kenobi, almost as an afterthought. If Dooku can simply decide he’s going to ragdoll Kenobi moments before he actually does it, that’s indicative of a sizable disparity between the two.
[/size]

[[Galen Marek is explicitly noted to be faster than Darth Vader but both are equally formidable combatants overall at the start of the fight. Despite this, Marek gets telekinetically pushed and choked more than once, even at the end when his power is beginning to eclipse Vader’s. The lore is full of instances like this, making it clear successful Force pushes aren’t always indicative of greater speed or power. In short, you have no proof Dooku straight up ripped through Kenobi’s active Force wall in either case.]]

Actually, no, Galen gets choked/pushed exactly once. You provided clips from two entirely different versions of the game, versions that in many cases are not reconcilable with the events of the other. In each of those versions, Galen is choked/pushed once at the start, and then the rest is game mechanics. You cannot use two almost completely different versions of the same story to argue that Vader TK’d Galen more than once.

On top of that, the versions of events seen in either version of the game are pointless, as the novel’s version of events takes precedence.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100414014010/http://starwars.com/vault/books/news20080819.html

As well, the quote you provided from the novel noting that “Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers”, does not equate to those attacks actually succeeding. Vader, in the novel, attempts to choke/push Galen once, and is immediately repelled, which stands in stark contrast to Dooku’s bout with Kenobi, wherein Kenobi is first immobilized for a full six seconds, and then the second time, is taken out of the fight altogether. The point here is not that Dooku simply ragdolled Kenobi, it’s that he consistently ragdolls Kenobi, with the same apparent level of ease, that being “instantly”. Vader’s doing so to Galen was a one off, which was quickly turned around, and does not compare to Dooku vs Kenobi in the slightest.

[[However, since you’ve emphasized speed so much, Kenobi moving “straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished”; his “blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike”; and parrying “every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper” (link) should serve as sufficient evidence of his parity with the Count at the start of Revenge of the Sith.

And even if speed is the deciding factor, it’s quite baseless to suggest it denotes “a significant gap in power.” Dooku might literally have been just a millisecond ahead of Kenobi, which would honestly prove nothing.]]

This argument would work if Dooku wasn’t explicitly stated to have been confused, caught off guard, at that moment, which is explicitly stated in the “Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary”

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7063356-confuseddooku.jpg

The quotes you provided above take place immediately after Kenobi makes the sudden switch from Ataru to Soresu. Dooku’s surprise and difficulty in handling Kenobi is due to that sudden shift, and the fact that he had not yet adapted to Kenobi’s change in style.



“Kenobi’s response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.
“Very well, then,” the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished.
And in the space where Kenobi’s chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker’s blade driving straight for Dooku’s heart.
Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.
Dooku thought, What?
He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure—that had been entirely too close—but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi’s face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep—
But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack….”

-RotS novelization




“Kenobi’s Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku’s own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi’s legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades—and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku’s mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi’s Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.”

-RotS novelization


It’s also important to note that Dooku is not addressing Kenobi’s generalized speed. He’s notably confused as to how Kenobi is moving as fast as he seems to be, and realizes that the source of the speed is in Kenobi’s form, because he’s using Soresu. Kenobi’s “blinding speed” is not coming from Kenobi’s own innate speed, as was clear when Dooku commented on how slow Kenobi was while he (Kenobi) was using Ataru.



“he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi’s Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.”

-RotS novel



Dooku, after he does finally adjust to the Jedi’s change in form, proceeds to ragdoll Kenobi twice. Your attempt to use the quotes you used is purposely misleading, and under scrutiny, they don’t stand.

[[Yeah, ”seemingly,” meaning Dooku’s victory only appeared effortless to Anakin, but that doesn’t mean in actuality it took no effort for Dooku to incapacitate Obi-Wan. Even if it did, this is explained by the fact that since Kenobi didn’t manage to erect his Force barriers in time, Dooku would only have had to exert the amount of force required to hurl a normal adult human male body a dozen meters and render them unconscious, which is obviously an effortless task for someone of the Count’s power as articulated in my third post to ArkhamAsylum3. This does not mean Dooku can actually effortlessly defeat Obi-Wan; the evidence I have provided proves otherwise.]]

Skywalker is obviously familiar with how Force barriers work, and regardless of whether Dooku got a lucky hit or not, something about the event still instilled a degree of fear into Anakin. Which implies that what Dooku did was, in fact, a demonstration of power over Kenobi that Skywalker wasn't expecting or didn't think Dooku could achieve.

Anakin may also not be taking just the second ragdoll into consideration, but both of those instances. As I mentioned before, once Dooku got serious, he casually cast Kenobi aside, and then proceeded to do so a second time, despite being exhausted. The first attack also stunned Kenobi for a rather lengthy period of time, a full six seconds. Within the context of a duel, this is an incredibly long time, long enough to be game-ending in a one on one fight. Meaning literally the only reason that Kenobi wasn’t killed at almost the very start of this duel, was because of Anakin. Kenobi on his own was demonstrated to be completely and utterly out of his depth.

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=86

[[You’ve offered nothing substantive here. You’ve just taken something I already acknowledged in my opener - “Kenobi was equalling Anakin on Mustafar; ergo, Kenobi should be the highest possible 8, and his familiarity with Anakin bridged the small gap between them” - and tried to spin it so it somehow refutes my argument.]]

This is well and good, but unfortunately for you, the difference between the “highest possible 8” and “lowest possible 9” is still massive, according to Nick Gillard.

"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-iZNQrFBA&feature=youtu.be&t=946

Which means even if what you say is true, and Kenobi is peak tier 8, and Skywalker low tier 9, Skywalker still has an “enormous” degree of superiority to Kenobi. Meaning on top of the reasons I already gave for Kenobi’s victory, Anakin’s own personal hindrances had him weakened significantly. Anakin was noted to be weakened on Mustafar, heavily so.

Skywalker is noted as being “filled with a seething maelstrom of pain, confusion, and anger", and having "tortured emotions roiling within him” in the “Unleashed - Anakin Skywalker” statue.

“The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader” also goes into the same details, stating that his rage "blocked his ability to sense" Obi-Wan. The same book also states the following:



“Despite his powers and years of attunement to Obi-Wan, his rage had blocked his ability to sense his former Master's presence on Mustafar until he saw the Jedi standing in the hatch of Padme's starship”




So Skywalker is not only inarguably far superior to Kenobi, but your erroneous claims that Kenobi and Skywalker were comparable in the Force are directly contradicted by other sources, and because the two above sources are not directly contradicted by Lucas, your argument falls apart.

[[You really shouldn’t have used a publisher’s summary.]]

I’ve been made aware by Ant that Chee has said blurbs are subjective in nature, thus not making them definitive. That said, I want to point a couple things out about your blurbs. Firstly, your blurbs about Bane are not addressing anything in-universe, they are OOU and address the reader, and have no bearing on the characters’ skills or power in universe. Secondly, they are directly contradicted by numerous quotes for other Sith (namely Palpatine) stating they are the most powerful Sith in history. So even if the blurbs weren’t subjective, your examples here are all inherently false, whereas the one I provided was not contradicted in any way by any other sources. So your examples wouldn’t help your argument in the slightest. Ultimately, my blurb was not a detriment to my argument, but those you provided have numerous significant contradictions. Bad counter is bad.

------------


100 Meter Dash: Stamina Expanded


I want to delve more into Revan’s stamina here, opposed to Krayt’s. Specifically Revan’s run through the Star Forge.

First, Revan faces an “army” of the Star Forge’s dark side infused droids. Two separate quotes from Malak verify that this was an “army.”

"Send the Star Forge's battle droids to deal with them."


"Lord Malak, forgive me, but how can mere droids be a match for the Jedi?"
"You underestimate the power of the Star Forge's droid army. Dispatch the droids."
Source: Darth Malak and Dark Jedi Master, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic


"I have news, Lord Malak. About the Jedi."
"Ah, the Jedi. Did my droids pass their test? Did they destroy our enemies?"
"No, Lord Malak. The droids could not stop them."
"Strange. I did not think there were any among the Order who could survive an attack by an army of the Star Forrge's battle droids."
"It - it was Revan. Your old master is with the Jedi, here on the Star Forge!"
"Yes, that would explain why the droids failed."



After Revan succeeds in defeating the droids, Malak sends “countless” Dark Jedi and troopers to confront Revan, they also fail.

Darth Malak requests a progress report from his retainer. He then learns that his former master is among the strike teams currently invading the Star Forge, and he’s about to arrange a surprise for Darth Revan. For now though, he orders all his apprentices into battle against you!
The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers on your way through the decks of the space station . . . Here you encounter a large number of Dark Jedi crowding this thin, lit walkway. Wade into the fray and execute a number of techniques of your choosing, cutting a swath through the assembled troops until all have fallen.
Once on Deck 2, take another slog through countless groups of Sith troopers and Dark Jedi. Continue with the melee fighting as you round a corner, and fight to a lower ramp and the rejoining of the two exterior corridors into a pathway leading directly south. Slash and blast through more foes, open another huge blast door, and repel yet more of Malak’s troops before entering the tunnel and emerging into a gigantic central chamber . . . However, you should be more concerned with the heavy Sith guard in the vicinity. Stay at the entrance until all of them have been dispatched, and then make a left turn, heading directly east. When the turrets have been disarmed, you need to worry about only the humanoid foes . . .
The command deck looks very much like the previous decks you’ve battled through. Start by fighting to the large main walkway, and continue down it to the first doorway. Enter it, heading east, open another doorway, then follow the ramp northward and up, then east to another door. During this time, Sith apprentices, Dark Jedi, and the finest Sith shock troops are waiting to demolish your party.
Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic - Prima's Official Strategy Guide


Revan essentially fights of three armies worth of Malak’s forces, a directly stated “army” of droids, and “countless” Dark Jedi and troops. As stated earlier, Revan does this while he is notably weakened by the Star Forge’s Dark Side nexus. He then goes on to fight Bastila, who previously was able to briefly contend with himself, Juhani, and Jolee Bindo. Upon defeating her, he fights more of the Forge’s droids, and then fights a super-amped Darth Malak, who continually rejuvenates himself by draining the life essence from a series of dead Jedi.


Note that the droids that Revan fought following his defeat of Bastila, were the same defenses that Malak had been preparing since the start of the attack on the Star Forge, preparing them for Revan specifically. Saying that the Dark Jedi and soldiers would “slow Revan down” until he had time to fully prepare the Forge’s defenses.

"That will give me the time I need to fully prepare the Star Forge's defenses. I am curious to see the true extent of this space station's capabilities. One as my old master will make an interesting test subject."
"Perhaps you will triumph, Bastila. But even if you fail it will give me the time I need to complete my preparations of the station's defenses. And then we shall see if Revan can stand against the full fury of the Star Forge!"
"I have unleashed the full potential of this Rakatan factory! . . . And now, my old master, I will let the Star Forge itself destroy you!"
This heavily implies that this final series of droids was a greater threat than the first army of droids, the soldiers, and even the Dark Jedi. Revan defeated them all, and then proceeded to fight and kill Darth Malak.

This is something that most Jedi would find extremely taxing to even attempt, let alone actually achieve. Compare this, again, to the fact that Krayt was EXPLICITLY stated to be EXHAUSTED, after slaughtering four Imperial Knights.

"The effort to bring down Fel's Empire, however, left him badly fatigued, and he was forced to reveal to his second in command, Darth Wyyrlok, that his Yuuzhan Vong-enhanced body was failing."


-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


I would also like to note that Revan did the same thing on Korriban. He fought through the “entire Sith Academy” of Dreshdae.


You have to fight through the entire Sith Academy, starting with the Sith apprentices in the valley.
Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic - Prima's Official Strategy Guide


The numbers of Sith in the academy and the in the Valley of the Dark Lords was said to have numbered in the hundreds.


The Sith Training Academy was located on the outskirts of Dreshdae, close to the Valley of the Dark Lords. It was a place where Sith were trained in a similar manner as the Jedi, with hundreds of students receiving instruction from Sith Masters.
Source: Star Wars Jedi Academy Training Manual

So Redeemed Revan fought through “hundreds” of Sith, including Sith Masters, on Korriban. Not to mention the soldiers. All while weakened by Korriban’s nexus, a nexus that would have amped his adversaries. I would also like to point out that Korriban is specifically said to be one of the stronger dark side nexuses.

The relevant quote in the image is listed under number 3.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6163544-nexusquotes.png



Repeat this to yourself a few times:

“Revan fought entire armies, a fallen prodigy, and Darth Malak, and was not explicitly said to have been exhausted.”

Repeat this to yourself a few times:

“Krayt fought four Imperial Knights, and was exhausted.”

This is, overall, simply me elaborating on the fact that Revan can run a marathon without having said to be exhausted at any point. Krayt fought four Imperial Knights, a duel which lasted mere seconds, and was exhausted by the end of it.

The point here being that unless you want to argue that Revan would be exhausted at the end of dueling those four Knights, and if you can’t prove that Krayt would ragdoll/blitz Revan out the gate, then you have to concede that Krayt simply cannot last against Revan, who I established has comparable feats, and vastly superior stamina. Revan can run a hundred-meter dash with ease. Krayt can run ten feet and collapse from exhaustion.
_________________

Character count: 16,198


I want to make a note here. As Az said, I was unable to post this earlier due to circumstances beyond my control. I'd like to thank Az for his patience, waiting for me to finally be able to respond. Your patience and cooperation have been very much appreciated.

Excellent post. Nice thinking and construction. 

That said, the fact that these misconceptions about the IH battle really are still prevalent is cringeworthy tbh. I really have to start to respond to them generally

Very good post. I liked especially the inclusion of a real life example and the argument centered on Revan’s stamina, regardless of whether or not I agree with it.

Excellent.

Really good post !

Excellent work.

Great post.

@LOTL @MasterCilghal @IdrisianGraecus @xolthol @DC77 (Reborn) @NotAA3

If you like the post, use the star function. I see it is being woefully neglected.

@darthbane77

Character count excluding quotes: 12800 / 25000

I. DARTH TYRANUS VS. OBI-WAN KENOBI

Dooku was fending off both Skywalker and Kenobi at the same time, and thus should have been tiring more than Kenobi, who was being aided by Skywalker, and was facing only Dooku. The odds were against Dooku, yet Kenobi was still overpowered twice by Dooku, the same thing occurred in the duel from TCW.

A. Dooku was fighting off two powerful Jedi simultaneously, and tired the same as Kenobi.
B. Dooku was fighting off two powerful Jedi simultaneously, and tired more than Kenobi.
C. Kenobi, aided and focused on a single enemy, tired more quickly than Dooku.

Either way, Dooku is demonstrably superior, which means your claim that Kenobi and Dooku are equals is complete bunk.

You’re conveniently neglecting the fact that the two combatants Dooku was facing were holding back tremendously to the point they were no challenge to him. The Count mused ”how utterly he dominated the combat” and believed ”He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed the vigos of the Black Sun.” In contrast to fending off two seemingly weak opponents, Kenobi was fighting a single powerful one. The circumstances weren’t nearly as slanted against Dooku as you’ve portrayed them. Nothing here proves he’s more powerful than Kenobi.

Also, the text does not say Dooku replenished himself prior to ragdolling Kenobi for the second time.






“He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn’t have time to enjoy it.”

-RotS Novel



All this quote is saying is that Dooku drew on the Force, and then kek’d Kenobi. There’s nothing special going on here outside of Dooku demonstrating his superiority.

Addressed in my debate with ArkhamAsylum3. To reiterate, a fresh Dooku pushing an exhausted Kenobi isn’t valid.

Even assuming you are right, and that Dooku replenished himself, it doesn’t matter, as Skywalker was on him as soon as it happened, exhausted Dooku to the point he could hardly see, and then proceeded to kek Kenobi yet again.



“Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku’s defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he’d used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he’d best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.”

-RotS Novelization.



So a tiring Dooku ragdolled a tiring Kenobi, and then an exhausted Dooku ragdolled Kenobi a second time.

Addressed in my debate with ArkhamAsylum3.

On top of that….



“These clowns might-just possibly-actually be able to beat him.


No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.”

- RotS Novelization



The above quote implies that a short series of events happened.

1: Kenobi and Skywalker proved to be a legitimate threat.
2: Dooku decided to stop toying around.
3: Dooku initiated his first ragdoll of Kenobi.

Which in itself implies that Dooku simply decided “this party’s over” and dispatched Kenobi, almost as an afterthought. If Dooku can simply decide he’s going to ragdoll Kenobi moments before he actually does it, that’s indicative of a sizable disparity between the two.

That’s not a “ragdoll”; he pushed Kenobi to the ground, and that’s it. Dooku, after finally deciding to take the fight seriously, opening with a Force push, and Kenobi being affected by that push, does not make him vastly more powerful than Obi-Wan. You’re inferring your conclusion from practically thin air.

Actually, no, Galen gets choked/pushed exactly once. You provided clips from two entirely different versions of the game, versions that in many cases are not reconcilable with the events of the other. In each of those versions, Galen is choked/pushed once at the start, and then the rest is game mechanics. You cannot use two almost completely different versions of the same story to argue that Vader TK’d Galen more than once.

On top of that, the versions of events seen in either version of the game are pointless, as the novel’s version of events takes precedence.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100414014010/http://starwars.com/vault/books/news20080819.html

As well, the quote you provided from the novel noting that “Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers”, does not equate to those attacks actually succeeding. Vader, in the novel, attempts to choke/push Galen once, and is immediately repelled, which stands in stark contrast to Dooku’s bout with Kenobi, wherein Kenobi is first immobilized for a full six seconds, and then the second time, is taken out of the fight altogether. The point here is not that Dooku simply ragdolled Kenobi, it’s that he consistently ragdolls Kenobi, with the same apparent level of ease, that being “instantly”. Vader’s doing so to Galen was a one off, which was quickly turned around, and does not compare to Dooku vs Kenobi in the slightest.

The games don’t necessarily contradict the novel. “The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential. Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly. And there were ways to fight that didn't involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers. Floors tipped underfoot; severed beams stabbed like javelins; overloaded circuits exploded.” There isn’t much detail here besides just general descriptions of attacks. The games fulfill the gaps with the cutscenes. It even says ”Invisible fists [...] punched with the power of pile drivers” so the Force push in the cutscene should be fair game. That makes it two times Galen was telekinetically pushed or grabbed by an equal/inferior opponent in the same fight.

Not to mention that this kind of nitpicking is kind of silly. There are multiple instances where Force-users have been successfully telekinetically attacked (e.g. Cade Skywalker vs. Karness Muur, Shadow Guard vs. Galen Marek, Arcann vs. the Outlander, Bastila Shan vs. Revan, etc.) and it’s not an indication of superiority. Two times in a fight suddenly signifying it seems arbitrary and groundless.

This argument would work if Dooku wasn’t explicitly stated to have been confused, caught off guard, at that moment, which is explicitly stated in the “Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary”

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7063356-confuseddooku.jpg

The quotes you provided above take place immediately after Kenobi makes the sudden switch from Ataru to Soresu. Dooku’s surprise and difficulty in handling Kenobi is due to that sudden shift, and the fact that he had not yet adapted to Kenobi’s change in style.



“Kenobi’s response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.
“Very well, then,” the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished.
And in the space where Kenobi’s chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker’s blade driving straight for Dooku’s heart.
Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.
Dooku thought, What?
He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure—that had been entirely too close—but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi’s face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep—
But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack….”

-RotS novelization




“Kenobi’s Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku’s own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi’s legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades—and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku’s mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi’s Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.”

-RotS novelization

Prove Dooku’s confusion negatively affected his performance.* The text attributes Dooku’s disinclination to attack to Kenobi’s speed, not his surprise or anything like that. In your second quote he’s not even confused, but extremely confident and so focused on attacking he’s not even noticing how well Kenobi’s defending. Kenobi’s speed feats are valid.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 1

Also, if you think Dooku’s confusion hindered him, then you not applying that same standard to Kenobi is a double standard.* He would have been just as caught off-guard by Dooku’s unexpected Force push. The second time it’s even stated ”Dooku abruptly shifted tactics” when he brought in telekinesis, so it would obviously be true for the first time as well.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 1

It’s also important to note that Dooku is not addressing Kenobi’s generalized speed. He’s notably confused as to how Kenobi is moving as fast as he seems to be, and realizes that the source of the speed is in Kenobi’s form, because he’s using Soresu. Kenobi’s “blinding speed” is not coming from Kenobi’s own innate speed, as was clear when Dooku commented on how slow Kenobi was while he (Kenobi) was using Ataru.



“he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi’s Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.”

-RotS novel.

The quote is saying Kenobi’s move was a technique of Soresu… not that using Soresu somehow automatically makes the user faster than normal, which makes zero sense. And Ataru is the form that’s all about speed and agility, not Soresu; Kenobi was slow with it at first because he was holding back.

Skywalker is obviously familiar with how Force barriers work, and regardless of whether Dooku got a lucky hit or not, something about the event still instilled a degree of fear into Anakin. Which implies that what Dooku did was, in fact, a demonstration of power over Kenobi that Skywalker wasn't expecting or didn't think Dooku could achieve.

Anakin may also not be taking just the second ragdoll into consideration, but both of those instances. As I mentioned before, once Dooku got serious, he casually cast Kenobi aside, and then proceeded to do so a second time, despite being exhausted. The first attack also stunned Kenobi for a rather lengthy period of time, a full six seconds. Within the context of a duel, this is an incredibly long time, long enough to be game-ending in a one on one fight. Meaning literally the only reason that Kenobi wasn’t killed at almost the very start of this duel, was because of Anakin. Kenobi on his own was demonstrated to be completely and utterly out of his depth.

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=86

Or maybe it’s just Anakin’s irrational side exaggerating an innocuous occurrence, which, as I have proven, in reality doesn’t mean Tyranus is more powerful than Kenobi? Him being stunned is obvious since he hit the ground really hard. Skywalker was on the floor for 12 seconds when Dooku kicked him - twice as long as Kenobi - yet just moments prior he was destroying Dooku. You, like Anakin, seem to be blowing irrelevant details out of proportion, and desperately grasping for a straw to latch onto to claim some tiny victory in an overall losing battle.

This is well and good, but unfortunately for you, the difference between the “highest possible 8” and “lowest possible 9” is still massive, according to Nick Gillard.

"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-iZNQrFBA&feature=youtu.be&t=946

Which means even if what you say is true, and Kenobi is peak tier 8, and Skywalker low tier 9, Skywalker still has an “enormous” degree of superiority to Kenobi. Meaning on top of the reasons I already gave for Kenobi’s victory, Anakin’s own personal hindrances had him weakened significantly. Anakin was noted to be weakened on Mustafar, heavily so.

Skywalker is noted as being “filled with a seething maelstrom of pain, confusion, and anger", and having "tortured emotions roiling within him” in the “Unleashed - Anakin Skywalker” statue.

“The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader” also goes into the same details, stating that his rage "blocked his ability to sense" Obi-Wan. The same book also states the following:



“Despite his powers and years of attunement to Obi-Wan, his rage had blocked his ability to sense his former Master's presence on Mustafar until he saw the Jedi standing in the hatch of Padme's starship”




So Skywalker is not only inarguably far superior to Kenobi, but your erroneous claims that Kenobi and Skywalker were comparable in the Force are directly contradicted by other sources, and because the two above sources are not directly contradicted by Lucas, your argument falls apart.

That kind of incremental increase doesn’t make any sense. Are Force-users locked from being at a certain power level, and after a steady, gradual rise they jump an ”enormous” degree all of a sudden when they advance a level in Gillard’s system, because they for some reason simply cannot be only a small bit above their earlier level but inexplicably have to get a big boost out of nowhere? It’s more likely Gillard is generalizing: he’s saying that in most cases, those on level nine are vastly superior to those on level eight, who in turn are in most cases vastly superior to those on level seven. Colloquially, it’s normal to say things like “cats have fur” even though there are cats without fur. In that very interview he gives an example of a character who is ”an eight bordering on nine”: Mace Windu. So there is precedent for Obi-Wan being on that level as well, and therefore being able to do as well against a tier 9 combatant as he did.

And none of your quotes state Vader was weakened.* The junior novel affirms Vader was using his negative emotions to bolster his power.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 2

But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.


The words stabbed at Obi-Wan, even though he knew that Anakin was speaking out of his own pain. He felt the dark side grow stronger, feeding on his despair. And then, as Anakin came close enough to swing his lightsaber once more, the Jedi in Obi-Wan rose up and at last he did the thing he hadn’t thought he could do.


Vader not sensing Obi-Wan also actually aids my argument here. In Visions of the Future, Mara Jade explains to Luke Skywalker that while he has indeed been ”gaining tremendous power in the Force,” his traumatic experiences in Dark Empire caused him to be ”paralyzed with fear” over the possibility of misusing that power. As a result, Luke began to overcompensate, ”using the Force like a heavy club”, arrogantly ”trying to save everyone and do everything.” This led to myriad rash and foolish decisions over the course of his career. Mara then elucidates that ”The Force isn’t just about power,” “the more you tap into it for raw power, the less you’re able to hear its guidance over the noise of your own activity.” In his own fear and arrogance, Luke had failed to truly listen to the Force, instead calling on it for power to, bluntly speaking, impose his own will on the world. The way he blames himself for Builder With Vines’ death reflects that perfectly: he’s overcome with guilt and anger, thinking it was his responsibility and obligation to save him, even if it meant stripping him of his autonomy as a living being by pinning him to the ceiling with the Force. This echoes Luke’s father, Anakin, who likewise used the Force as a tool in trying to save Padme, believing he was doing the right thing when in reality he was only acting out his own selfish desires. The fact he didn’t sense Obi-Wan arriving on Mustafar indicates he was calling on the Force only for power, which supports my point. It doesn’t make him weaker at all.

Luke worked moisture into a suddenly dry mouth as he watched Builder With Vines finish his snack and swoop down for another pass. Why in the name of the Force was he taking such a terrible risk?

And it was a terrible risk. Luke could feel the danger involved, his Jedi senses tingling almost as strongly as if the threat had been aimed directly at him. Surely Builder With Vines couldn’t be that hungry. Could he?

“Offhand, I’d say he’s showing off,” Mara muttered, answering his silent question.

“For who? Us?”

“Hardly.” Mara nodded toward the wall behind Luke. “For the kid.”

Luke craned his neck to look. Balanced precariously on a stone near the Qom Jha opening, Child Of Winds was watching in utter fascination as Builder With Vines swooped over the mass of insects, his wings quivering with excitement or nervousness or envy. “Uh-oh,” Luke said. “You don’t think—?”

“I would hope he’s not that stupid,” Mara said. “But the Qom Jha have been riding him ever since we headed out on this little trip. He just might.”

Luke grimaced. “Child Of Winds, you stay where you are,” he ordered, putting Jedi firmness into his voice. “You’re not to try to do what Builder With Vines is—”

And suddenly, a terrified shriek screamed through his mind. “What—?” he gasped, his body twitching violently with the shock of the sound.

“It’s Builder With Vines,” Mara bit out, her fingers tightening around Luke’s to help maintain their balance. Luke looked down—

To a horrifying sight. Builder With Vines, his wings flapping frantically but uselessly, was struggling half-submerged in the living river flowing through the passageway. Dozens of fire creepers were already crawling across his head and wings, biting and stinging. Even as Child of Winds’s terrified cry joined Builder With Vines’s scream in Luke’s mind a hundred more of the insects crawled onto the Qom Jha, their weight forcing him still deeper beneath the flow.

There was no time to waste. Stretching out with the Force, Luke hauled Builder With Vines up and out of the flow, holding him suspended in midair. He shifted his focus to the insects, grabbing them through the Force and throwing them off him.

“Don’t bother,” Mara said quietly. “There’s nothing you can do.”

Luke bit back the reflexive impulse to deny it. He was a Jedi—there had to be something he could do.

But no. She was right … and as Builder With Vines’s mental scream died into the silence of death he let the body sink gently back into the mindless flow.

“Easy on the fingers,” Mara said softly.

With an effort, Luke turned his gaze back to her, focusing on their joined hands. His fingers were all but white where he was squeezing hers tightly in frustration. “Sorry,” he muttered, forcing himself to relax his grip.

“That’s all right,” she said. “You know, you’ve got a pretty good grip there. I thought you Jedi usually concentrated more on the mental aspects of the Force than you did in keeping in shape.”

She was trying to deflect his attention, he knew, trying to turn his thoughts away from the horror he’d just witnessed. Sympathy from Mara was a new experience all by itself; but neither words nor sympathy had a puddle’s chance of smoothing over the guilt and anger rising in his throat like a twisting sand-devil. “It’s not all right,” he snapped back at her. “I knew it was dangerous—I could have stopped him. I should have stopped him.”

“How?” Mara countered. “I mean, sure, you could have used the Force to pin him to the ceiling. But what right would you have had to do something like that?”

“What do you mean, what right?” Luke bit out. “I was the one in charge here. Their safety was my responsibility.”

“Oh, come on,” Mara said, the sympathy still there but with a tinge of scorn around the edges now. “Builder With Vines was an intelligent, responsible adult being. He knew what he was doing. He made his choice, and he suffered the consequences. If you want to start feeling guilty about mistakes, start with ones that were actually your fault.”

“Such as?” Luke growled.

For a long moment Mara gazed coolly at him, and Luke felt a sudden wave of misgiving ripple through his anger. “Such as?” Mara repeated. “Well, let’s see. Such as not moving your Jedi academy off Yavin when you first found out a really nasty dark side power was infesting the place. Such as not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the minute he started showing dark side tendencies of his own. Such as not providing adequate protection for your sister’s children against kidnapping, despite the fact it had already been tried a couple of times. Such as unilaterally declaring yourself a Jedi Master after less than ten years on the job. How long a list do you want?”

Luke tried to glare at her. But there was no strength behind the glare, and with a grimace of embarrassment he dropped his gaze from her face. “You’re right,” he sighed. “You’re absolutely right. I don’t know, Mara. It’s been … I don’t know.”

“Let me guess,” she said, the sarcasm gone from her voice again. “Life as a Jedi has been a lot foggier than you ever expected it to be. You’ve had trouble understanding what you’re supposed to do, or how you’re supposed to behave. You’ve been gaining tremendous power in the Force, but more often than not you’ve been paralyzed with fear that you’re going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?”

Luke stared at her. “Yes,” he said, not quite believing it. How had she known? “That’s it exactly.”

“And yet,” she continued, “sometime in the past couple of months, things have suddenly become clearer. Not that you’ve had any great lightning-bolt insights, but a lot of the hesitation has disappeared and you’ve found it easier to stay on what seems in hindsight to have been the right path.”

“Right again,” Luke said. “Though there have also been one or two pretty impressive revelations,” he added, thinking back. “The vision on Tierfon that got me in touch with Karrde just in time to hear about you being trapped here, for one.” He eyed her closely. “You know what’s been going on?”

“Yes, it’s been only slightly more visible than blindingly obvious,” she said dryly. “Certainly to me. Probably to Leia and Corran and some of your other Jedi students, too. Possibly to everyone else in the New Republic.”

“Oh, thank you,” Luke said, trying to match her tone and not entirely succeeding. “That makes me feel so much better.”

“Good. It was supposed to.” Mara took a deep breath, and Luke could sense her reluctance. “Look, you’re the one in the middle of this. You’re the one who has to make the final call on what’s going on. But if you want my reading, it all started with that little jaunt you took out to Byss about nine years ago. Where you faced—whatever it was you faced out there.”

Luke shivered. “The reborn Emperor.”

“Or whatever,” Mara said with an odd touch of impatience. “Personally, I’m not convinced it was really him. But that’s beside the point. The point was that you decided—stupidly and rather arrogantly, in my opinion—that the best way to stop him would be for you to pretend to join up and let him teach you some of his dark side techniques.”

“But I didn’t really go over to the dark side,” Luke protested, trying to remember those dark days. “I mean, I don’t think I did.”

Mara shook her head. “Debatable; but it almost doesn’t matter. One way or the other, you still willingly dabbled in it. And from that point on, it colored everything you did.”

One of Master Yoda’s pronouncements floated up from his memory. If once you start down the dark path, his old teacher had warned, forever will it dominate your destiny. “It did, too, didn’t it?” he murmured, half to himself, as all the errors and mistakes and, yes, the arrogance of the past nine years rose accusingly before his eyes. “What was I thinking?”

“You weren’t thinking,” Mara said, an odd mixture of impatience and compassion swirling together in her voice and emotions. “You were reacting, trying to save everyone and do everything. And in the process you came within a split blaster bolt of destroying yourself.”

“So what changed?” he asked. “What happened?”

Mara’s eyes narrowed fractionally. “You telling me you don’t know?”

Luke grimaced, wondering that he hadn’t seen it earlier. That critical moment off Iphigin, as he and Han had prepared for combat against the pirate gang Han had deduced was on its way. The moment when he’d seen the vision of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun laughing at him … “No, I know,” he conceded. “I made a decision to stop using the power of the Force so much.”

And suddenly, through that mixture of compassion and impatience came a wave of something completely unexpected. An overpowering flood of relief. “You got it,” Mara said quietly. “Finally.”

Luke shook his head. “But why?” he demanded. “The power’s obviously there, available for a Jedi to use. Is it just because I touched the dark side that using it is so bad for me?”

“That’s probably part of it,” Mara said. “But even if you’d never done that you’d still have run into trouble. You ever been in a hullplate-shaping plant?”

“Ah—no,” Luke said, blinking at the sudden change of topic.

“How about an ore-crushing facility?” she suggested. “Lando’s had a couple of them at one time or another—you must have visited at least one of them.”

“I’ve seen the one on Varn, yes,” Luke said, the mention of Lando’s name throwing a sudden damper on the cautiously growing feeling of excitement at these new revelations. Mara’s relationship with Lando …

“Fine,” Mara said, either missing the change in Luke’s emotions or else ignoring it. “Sometimes small songbirds set up their nests in the upper supports of those buildings. Did you hear any of them singing when you were there?”

Luke smiled tightly. Again, it was so obvious. “Of course not,” he said. “It was way too noisy in there to hear anything that quiet.”

Mara smiled back. “Pretty obvious, isn’t it, once you see it. The Force isn’t just about power, like most non-Jedi think. It’s also about guidance: everything from those impressive future visions to the more subtle real-time warnings I sometimes think of as a danger sense. Trouble is, the more you tap into it for raw power, the less you’re able to hear its guidance over the noise of your own activity.”

“Yes,” Luke murmured, so many puzzles suddenly coming clear. He had often wondered how it was he could rebuild Darth Vader’s personal fortress while Master Yoda had become winded doing something as relatively simple as lifting an X-wing from the Dagobah swamp. Clearly, Yoda had understood the choices far better than his upstart pupil.

And even in the short time since Luke had decided to try that same choice he’d already seen glimpses of why Yoda had chosen that path. Subtle bits of guidance, sometimes occurring as little more than vague and almost subconscious feelings, had been showing up more and more: protecting him from a quick capture back at the Cavrilhu Pirates’ asteroid base, or quietly prompting him to accept Child Of Winds’s assistance, which had led directly to this cavern and the pride-motivated aid of the Qom Jha. “I was on Iphigin a couple of months ago helping Han with some negotiations,” he said. “The Diamala at the talks told Han that Jedi who used as much power as I did always ended up slipping over to the dark side.”

“They may be right,” Mara agreed. “Not all Dark Jedi come from botched training, you know. Some of them slip into it all by themselves.”

“Not a very pleasant thought,” Luke said soberly, thinking about his Yavin academy. Of his successes at Jedi instruction there, and his failures. “Especially given that I started teaching under dark side influence.”


Finally, Gillard clearly states ”Anakin has learned the fighting [...] but he hasn’t learned the mental side of it” and that ”He took Force LSD. And that’s what made him a nine. So that’s dangerous. It’s dangerous because he hasn’t done it the right way. But it’s still a nine, you know? It’s still something that you need to deal with.” He also prefaces those statements with ”The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters,” making it very clear his statements about Vader being a 9 are in the context of the fight, but that’s obvious from the below scans anyway. Ergo, Mustafar Vader, despite all his emotional issues, is still very much a level 9 combatant whose level 9 abilities need to be dealt with. The arguments for him being hindered never made much sense, as he evidently wouldn’t be a tier 9 combatant were he weaker than usual.





So, to recap, Krayt >>>> Kenobi < Mustafar Vader >>> Dooku.

II. DARTH KRAYT VS. REVAN

KotOR Revan is beneath TPM Yoda, TPM Mace, and AotC Dooku - even after two posts, there has not been any attempt made to refute this (unless he’s deliberately waiting for the last post so I can’t respond). Per Gillard, Anakin’s transition from 8 to 9 is ”enormous,” and per my third post to ArkhamAsylum3, the Anakin who clobbered Dooku in 12 seconds was still an 8. Sidious and RotS Yoda are both 9’s and would therefore slaughter Dooku even quicker. Vong Krayt is probably above Sidious and Yoda per the logic chain in my first post.

I don’t believe I ever claimed that Krayt didn’t stomp them. My point was that the fight clearly and undeniably exhausted him. Krayt would be forced to devote a far greater deal of energy to fighting Revan than he had to against a few measly Imperial Knights. Fatigue would catch up with Krayt eventually, as he can’t simply fight indefinitely without tiring, and as Revan’s own shows of stamina indicate, he can fight off wave after wave of amped enemy soldiers, while himself notably hindered, and then continue on to face the second most powerful Sith Lord in history up to that point, and defeat him.

This analogy should help clarify my meaning.

If someone is chasing you with weapon. If you’re in appropriate shape, your natural abilities and adrenaline should let you run a mile away before you get tired, if your life depends on it. However, if you’re already tired/tiring a dozen meters into your run, chances are that you won’t be able to keep up a good pace for the whole run, and your performance will drop sharply before you get anywhere close to reaching that one mile.

This applies to Krayt, who is well below the physical shape he should be in (as seen through the quotes I provided), and was exhausted after stomping just a few, comparatively fodder, Imperial Knights. Unless Krayt is capable of taking Revan down nigh immediately, there’s no reason, based on his performance against the Knights, to presume that Krayt can run a marathon with Revan, when he can’t even run twelve meters.

100 Meter Dash: Stamina Expanded


I want to delve more into Revan’s stamina here, opposed to Krayt’s. Specifically Revan’s run through the Star Forge.

First, Revan faces an “army” of the Star Forge’s dark side infused droids. Two separate quotes from Malak verify that this was an “army.”

"Send the Star Forge's battle droids to deal with them."


"Lord Malak, forgive me, but how can mere droids be a match for the Jedi?"
"You underestimate the power of the Star Forge's droid army. Dispatch the droids."
Source: Darth Malak and Dark Jedi Master, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic


"I have news, Lord Malak. About the Jedi."
"Ah, the Jedi. Did my droids pass their test? Did they destroy our enemies?"
"No, Lord Malak. The droids could not stop them."
"Strange. I did not think there were any among the Order who could survive an attack by an army of the Star Forrge's battle droids."
"It - it was Revan. Your old master is with the Jedi, here on the Star Forge!"
"Yes, that would explain why the droids failed."
Source: Dark Jedi Master and Darth Malak, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic



After Revan succeeds in defeating the droids, Malak sends “countless” Dark Jedi and troopers to confront Revan, they also fail.

Darth Malak requests a progress report from his retainer. He then learns that his former master is among the strike teams currently invading the Star Forge, and he’s about to arrange a surprise for Darth Revan. For now though, he orders all his apprentices into battle against you!
The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers on your way through the decks of the space station . . . Here you encounter a large number of Dark Jedi crowding this thin, lit walkway. Wade into the fray and execute a number of techniques of your choosing, cutting a swath through the assembled troops until all have fallen.
Once on Deck 2, take another slog through countless groups of Sith troopers and Dark Jedi. Continue with the melee fighting as you round a corner, and fight to a lower ramp and the rejoining of the two exterior corridors into a pathway leading directly south. Slash and blast through more foes, open another huge blast door, and repel yet more of Malak’s troops before entering the tunnel and emerging into a gigantic central chamber . . . However, you should be more concerned with the heavy Sith guard in the vicinity. Stay at the entrance until all of them have been dispatched, and then make a left turn, heading directly east. When the turrets have been disarmed, you need to worry about only the humanoid foes . . .
The command deck looks very much like the previous decks you’ve battled through. Start by fighting to the large main walkway, and continue down it to the first doorway. Enter it, heading east, open another doorway, then follow the ramp northward and up, then east to another door. During this time, Sith apprentices, Dark Jedi, and the finest Sith shock troops are waiting to demolish your party.
Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic - Prima's Official Strategy Guide


Revan essentially fights of three armies worth of Malak’s forces, a directly stated “army” of droids, and “countless” Dark Jedi and troops. As stated earlier, Revan does this while he is notably weakened by the Star Forge’s Dark Side nexus. He then goes on to fight Bastila, who previously was able to briefly contend with himself, Juhani, and Jolee Bindo. Upon defeating her, he fights more of the Forge’s droids, and then fights a super-amped Darth Malak, who continually rejuvenates himself by draining the life essence from a series of dead Jedi.


Note that the droids that Revan fought following his defeat of Bastila, were the same defenses that Malak had been preparing since the start of the attack on the Star Forge, preparing them for Revan specifically. Saying that the Dark Jedi and soldiers would “slow Revan down” until he had time to fully prepare the Forge’s defenses.

"That will give me the time I need to fully prepare the Star Forge's defenses. I am curious to see the true extent of this space station's capabilities. One as my old master will make an interesting test subject."
Source: Darth Malak, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic
"Perhaps you will triumph, Bastila. But even if you fail it will give me the time I need to complete my preparations of the station's defenses. And then we shall see if Revan can stand against the full fury of the Star Forge!"
Source: Darth Malak, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic
"I have unleashed the full potential of this Rakatan factory! . . . And now, my old master, I will let the Star Forge itself destroy you!"
Source: Darth Malak, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic
This heavily implies that this final series of droids was a greater threat than the first army of droids, the soldiers, and even the Dark Jedi. Revan defeated them all, and then proceeded to fight and kill Darth Malak.

This is something that most Jedi would find extremely taxing to even attempt, let alone actually achieve. Compare this, again, to the fact that Krayt was EXPLICITLY stated to be EXHAUSTED, after slaughtering four Imperial Knights.

"The effort to bring down Fel's Empire, however, left him badly fatigued, and he was forced to reveal to his second in command, Darth Wyyrlok, that his Yuuzhan Vong-enhanced body was failing."


-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


I would also like to note that Revan did the same thing on Korriban. He fought through the “entire Sith Academy” of Dreshdae.


You have to fight through the entire Sith Academy, starting with the Sith apprentices in the valley.
Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic - Prima's Official Strategy Guide


The numbers of Sith in the academy and the in the Valley of the Dark Lords was said to have numbered in the hundreds.


The Sith Training Academy was located on the outskirts of Dreshdae, close to the Valley of the Dark Lords. It was a place where Sith were trained in a similar manner as the Jedi, with hundreds of students receiving instruction from Sith Masters.
Source: Star Wars Jedi Academy Training Manual

So Redeemed Revan fought through “hundreds” of Sith, including Sith Masters, on Korriban. Not to mention the soldiers. All while weakened by Korriban’s nexus, a nexus that would have amped his adversaries. I would also like to point out that Korriban is specifically said to be one of the stronger dark side nexuses.

The relevant quote in the image is listed under number 3.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6163544-nexusquotes.png



Repeat this to yourself a few times:

“Revan fought entire armies, a fallen prodigy, and Darth Malak, and was not explicitly said to have been exhausted.”

Repeat this to yourself a few times:

“Krayt fought four Imperial Knights, and was exhausted.”

This is, overall, simply me elaborating on the fact that Revan can run a marathon without having said to be exhausted at any point. Krayt fought four Imperial Knights, a duel which lasted mere seconds, and was exhausted by the end of it.

The point here being that unless you want to argue that Revan would be exhausted at the end of dueling those four Knights, and if you can’t prove that Krayt would ragdoll/blitz Revan out the gate, then you have to concede that Krayt simply cannot last against Revan, who I established has comparable feats, and vastly superior stamina. Revan can run a hundred-meter dash with ease. Krayt can run ten feet and collapse from exhaustion.

Krayt would butcher Revan about as quickly as he dispensed with those Imperial Knights, so this was a waste of space and characters.

Also, seeing as you outright ignored my argument, I’ll repost it here:* “And he only got burned out after he stopped exerting himself; he can keep up a fight for far longer than a few seconds even seven years later when his condition is much worse against Cade Skywalker.”

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENTS COUNTER: 1

You seem to have misread the quote. The quote states that Krayt declares himself emperor by the end of the war, not that the seeds don’t begin to consume him until that point. The text goes on to say that healing trances and Force healing begin to work less, meaning these practices were in use already to keep Krayt alive. This means that Krayt’s issues with the seeds overtaking him have been present for some time, and are not a new or sudden occurrence, as you claim. So the quote damages my argument “only in your mind, my very young apprentice.”

You’d be right if it weren’t for the fact that the Coral Seeds were already weakening Krayt prior to the end of Sith-Imperial War, as I just went over in the above counter. Because the seeds were weakening him prior to the end of the war, and he still hadn’t found a cure by 137 ABY, and was looking for a way to restore his power, it’s rather clear that this weakening had begun prior to 130 ABY, and continued on for the next seven years.

”By the end of the Sith-Imperial War [...] The Yuuzhan Vong implants used to extend his life begin to consume him.” How am I misreading it? It says ”begin to consume him,” not anything that would denote the coral seeds had been devouring him prior. Your own quote even says they were used to ”extend his life,” which goes against that notion. That healing trances were attempted to remove the spores doesn’t mean they were killing him before.

I’m not terribly sure of what the relevance of this is. Are you suggesting that throwing a ship is beyond Revan’s capabilities? And how much are you suggesting that Cade grew from that point to his duel with Krayt? Revan’s own power growth over the course of KotOR is more than enough to justify the claim that merely throwing a ship is well within Revan’s abilities to replicate. If you want to insinuate that Revan can’t replicate the feat (as you have here) you’re also insinuating that Darth Malak, Exar Kun, Ulic-Qel Droma, and every other Jedi and Sith (barring Vitiate) throughout all of history is also incapable of replicating a basic showing of telekinesis. As Revan’s scaling from Malak from Kun makes him the most powerful mortal Force user in history up to that point, again, barring Vitiate.

Revan also has comparable feats himself. During his confrontation on the Foundry, he was capable of casually throwing meteors, and did so to several of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=579GbnTtqX4

The feats themselves may not be directly comparable, but each one is indicative of far different levels of power that CAN be compared. Hammering a nail into a post and a rocket forcing a shuttle into space are vastly different events, but one clearly requires a vast degree more energy/force to achieve. The same can be applied here.

No, my point was that simply because a character hasn’t shown something doesn’t mean they are incapable of it or that their power level is beneath that feat. I provided Krayt scaling from a feat the likes of which Revan has never demonstrated replicating or scaling from as a response to you doing the same with Revan scaling from Thon’s feat. They are entirely different in nature and thus cannot be compared. Your comparison to hammering a nail and achieving escape velocity is a false analogy because both can be converted to a common unit of measurement like newtons.* You haven’t quantified how impressive Thon’s feat would be in terms of telekinesis or any other ability, so you have no basis to assert it puts Revan above Krayt.**

*FALLACY COUNTER: 2
*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 3

And by the way, Cade’s feat is far from “a basic showing of telekinesis” - the ship was huge, and he threw it far into the distance. Even if we assume Revan smashing boulders is “comparable,” you haven’t proven KotOR Revan scales from Foundry Revan to the same extent that Vong Krayt scales from drug addict Cade.*

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 4

Let me clarify. I’m not saying that Thon was actively keeping Ambria’s nexus contained. I’m saying his power and his power alone, imprisoning that energy “forever” or, in other words, “indefinitely”, is indicative of the potency of Thon’s powers. Basically, Thon’s power>>>the power of arguably the most powerful conventional dark side nexus in galactic history.

How long it would take for those to occur is irrelevant, the fact the dark side energies were this potent is the point. The nexus in question is one that is disproportionately powerful to any other conventional dark side nexus in the mythos. Jedi Historians eventually agreed that the ritual on Ambria required more dark side power than any other dark Force user had ever called on before.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7058265-ambrianexus.png

This potentially implies that the nexus of Ambria was a more powerful source of Dark Side energy than the nexus created by Vitiate on Medriaas, the same nexus that he absorbed, which granted him his immortality and his status as the most powerful Dark Side user in the Old Republic era.

The Sith sorceress calling ”on more power than any individual had asked of the dark side before” doesn’t mean the energies of the resulting devastation would be greater than those of Nathema’s dark side nexus. This is because the power of Vitiate’s ritual that caused him absorb the nexus doesn’t have to be greater than that of the nexus either; the kinetic energy one uses to move food to their mouth isn’t necessarily greater than the chemical energy contained in that food. And so if the Nathema ritual isn’t more potent than the Nathema nexus, the Ambria ritual purportedly being more potent than the Nathema ritual doesn’t make it more potent than the Nathema nexus either.

Even were I wrong on that, it wouldn’t matter since Ood Bnar, the writer of the Tales of the Jedi Companion, or any of the ”Jedi scholars” who studied the Ambria ritual, aren’t even aware of Vitiate or Nathema, so their word doesn’t carry any value apropos your comparison. The Old Republic Encyclopedia, which is written from the point of view of over 350 years later, disagrees with them regardless, labeling Nathema ”the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see.” - assuming of course that the Ambria ritual even happened after the Nathema ritual, which you haven’t proven.*

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 5

With that out of the way, the only hype we have for the Sith spirits is the fact that they were going to consume the system - but again, given we don’t know what ”consume” actually means in this context, and we have no timeframe for it, their actual strength can’t be quantified; if a person threatened to raze Mount Everest to the ground by hand, it would take them an inordinate amount of time and wouldn’t put them anywhere near mountain-level.

Ergo, Thon’s feat is all around unquantifiable.

I’ve been made aware by Ant that Chee has said blurbs are subjective in nature, thus not making them definitive. That said, I want to point a couple things out about your blurbs. Firstly, your blurbs about Bane are not addressing anything in-universe, they are OOU and address the reader, and have no bearing on the characters’ skills or power in universe. Secondly, they are directly contradicted by numerous quotes for other Sith (namely Palpatine) stating they are the most powerful Sith in history. So even if the blurbs weren’t subjective, your examples here are all inherently false, whereas the one I provided was not contradicted in any way by any other sources. So your examples wouldn’t help your argument in the slightest. Ultimately, my blurb was not a detriment to my argument, but those you provided have numerous significant contradictions. Bad counter is bad.

Spoiler:

Blurbs don’t have to include all of history. For example, the one from Darth Plagueis doesn’t even know if the titular character is going to die despite everyone who has seen a little obscure indie film called Revenge of the Sith already knowing he will, meaning the blurb isn’t including anything past its events in the in-universe chronology.



I would also mention The Old Republic Encyclopedia which namedrops the BBY dating system despite it not being invented until thousands of years later, yet the book also says the future of the galaxy is uncertain, that ”Revan’s final fate is lost to history,” etc. - things that demarcate the text as not referring to anything past the point of the vanilla game as far the in-universe chronology goes. This is because the book is written from an in-universe perspective shortly after the outbreak of the Galactic War despite the narration clearly being aware of events even thousands of years after, similar to how The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia is written from an in-universe POV by an ”omniscient committee of historians and scholars” whose vantage point is 150 ABY - they’re all-knowing but writing from a limited perspective.











There is no reason to think it’s different in the case of the Bane blurbs and force an unnecessary contradiction between them and Sidious’ accolades other than if you have somehow happened to have made an embarrassing blunder in an online debate that has the risk of costing you the win. We should always strive to reconcile all ostensible contradictions and tossing evidence out should be a last resort. A simple solution here would be to simply accept that the Bane blurbs only go up to Bane’s time and not past it, so as to not contradict Sidious’ accolades, which the grammar of the blurbs allows.

On another note, Leland Chee has also proclaimed all “most powerful” quotes to be subjective as well, yet in this debate you’ve used one of Exar Kun’s most powerful Sith quotes in your arguments and referenced Vitiate’s, so you’re committing a double standard by dismissing blurbs on the basis of Chee declaring them subjective yet making use of most powerful quotes which Chee has likewise denounced.* He’s also said that any and all ”rankings” “are for gameplay purposes only.” That would include the Darth Malak > Exar Kun quote you employed. In essence, he’s saying there are no narrative power hierarchies outside Gillard’s system. Are you really sure you want to appeal to this guy? Because, ultimately, who even gave him the authority to dictate what is and isn’t valid for debating purposes? No, really, where does his authority come from?

*FALLACY COUNTER: 3





Anyway, since I didn’t see a rebuttal to my scaling chain other than a sleazy attempt at backpedaling, my argument stands. Vong Krayt > Wyyrlok > Bane > Vitiate > Revan. And also: Vong Krayt > RotS Sidious > IH Anakin > Dooku > TPM Mace > KotOR Revan.

CONCLUSION

I win.

Solid post.

Nice, while it didn’t really change my side, it was rather convincing.

Great post, not surprising from Az

By far Az's best post in the debate. Amazing work.

Accidentally posted my response as a new topic rather than a reply. Deleted the mis-created threads, and my response will be up here shortly.

[[You’re conveniently neglecting the fact that the two combatants Dooku was facing were holding back tremendously to the point they were no challenge to him. The Count mused ”how utterly he dominated the combat” and believed ”He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed the vigos of the Black Sun.” In contrast to fending off two seemingly weak opponents, Kenobi was fighting a single powerful one. The circumstances weren’t nearly as slanted against Dooku as you’ve portrayed them. Nothing here proves he’s more powerful than Kenobi.]]

Again with the purposely misleading out of context quotes, I see. No, Dooku’s musings presented here are made prior to Kenobi and Skywalker switching to their native forms, before Kenobi switched to Soresu, and before Skywalker switched to Djem-So.

They didn’t even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku’s mastery of Sith techniques. They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis. They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force.


He drew their strikes to his parries, and drove his own ripostes with thrusts of dark power that subtly altered the Jedi’s balance and disrupted their timing. He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed the vigos of the Black Sun.

-RotS Novel


The above quote directly precedes Kenobi and Skywalker switching to their native forms. It is followed, immediately, by this quote, which marks the start of Kenobi and Skywalker ceasing their use of Ataru and Shii-Cho, and using Soresu and Djem-So.

However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man.
He leaned into a thrust at Kenobi’s gut that the Jedi Master deflected with a rising parry, bringing them chest-to-chest, blades flaring, locked together a handbreadth from each other’s throats. “Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You’ll have to do better.”
Kenobi’s response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.
“Very well, then,” the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished.
And in the space where Kenobi’s chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker’s blade driving straight for Dooku’s heart.
Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.
Dooku thought, What?


-RotS Novel


After this point, the Jedi were no longer holding back, and Dooku had decided that the “comedy had ended” and ceased holding back himself. Which eventually lead to Dooku’s casually ragdolling Kenobi twice, as we’ve gone over extensively now. So I’m not sure what you hoped to accomplish by pointing this out. Unless you’re implying that the Jedi were holding back the entirety of the duel, you have no point here.

I also don’t believe the text supports you anyway, even ignoring the above points. Prior to Anakin and Kenobi’s switching to their native forms, Anakin launches a table at Dooku which Dooku barely manages to avoid, with him saying the impact would have killed him.

"Anakin launched himself at Dooku's back-and the Count half turned, gesturing casually while holding Obi-Wan at bay with an elegant one-handed bind. Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the first one in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked him down.


He snarled to himself and reached through the Force to pick up some chairs of his own-and the situation table itself slammed into him and drove him back to crush him against the wall. His lightsaber came loose from his slackening fingers and clattered across the tabletop to drop to the floor on the far side.


And Dooku barely even seemed to be paying attention to him.


Pinned, breathless, half stunned, Anakin thought, If this keeps up, I am going to get mad.


While effortlessly deflecting a rain of blue-streaking cuts from Kenobi, Dooku felt the Force shove the situation table away from the wall and send it hurtling toward his back with astonishing speed; he barely managed to lift himself enough that he could backroll over it instead of having it shatter his spine."


-RotS Novel

Skywalker in this instance is very clearly making the active attempt to kill Dooku, to end the duel. This is not indicative of the Jedi holding back, rather, it’s indicative that the Jedi are hiding their true skill with the sabers. These things are not the same.

So the bottom line here is that the text does not support the idea that the Jedi were holding back at all. Anakin and Kenobi are both actively trying to end the duel from the very start, despite not using their native forms from the beginning, which was a tactical decision, not an indication of them holding back. Really, why would they hold back? They know Dooku is fully capable of trouncing them because he did it a mere few months prior to this, and he did it across the Clone War more than once. The argument that the Jedi were holding back is not only entirely unsupportable, it just blatantly makes no sense.

[[Addressed in my debate with ArkhamAsylum3. To reiterate, a fresh Dooku pushing an exhausted Kenobi isn’t valid.]]

I’m fairly certain the quote doesn’t say or imply that Dooku replenished himself prior to KO’ing Kenobi. And I don’t see where in your debate with AA3 that you actually proved that Dooku had fully replenished himself by then. I don’t care what you think you proved to AA3, you need to prove it to me now. You vaguely referring to your debate with AA does not constitute a valid response in the slightest, and the attempt to do so without even quoting where in the debate you think you “debunked” the point is laughable.

Not to mention the fact that point can’t have been debunked, because it’s explicitly not what you’re arguing it is. Dooku explicitly does not replenish himself until after he KO’s Obi-Wan.

We agree that Dooku was on the ropes at this point, but you’re absolutely incorrect about when Dooku replenishes himself.


"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away."


-RotS Novel


This quote comes after Dooku KO’s Kenobi.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.


Wouldn't that be lovely?


There was no sense in taking chances, however.


While Kenobi's bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi's fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.


This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.


Now, as for Skywalker-Which was as far as Dooku got, because by the time his attention returned to the younger Jedi, his vision was rather completely obstructed by the sole of a boot approaching his face with something resembling terminal velocity.


The impact was a blast of white fire, and there was a second impact against his back that was the balcony rail, and then the room turned upside down and he fell toward the ceiling, but not really, of course: it only felt that way because he had flipped over the rail and he was falling headfirst toward the floor, and neither his arms nor his legs were paying any attention to what he was trying to make them do. The Force seemed to be busy elsewhere, and really, the whole process was entirely mortifying.


He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet.


He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him-and Dooku couldn't hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.


There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago ... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had . . .


He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

He lifted his blade, and beckoned.

-RotS Novel

So in actuality, an exhausted Dooku ragdolling a tired Kenobi is entirely valid. It’s your argument that isn’t.

[[That’s not a “ragdoll”; he pushed Kenobi to the ground, and that’s it. Dooku, after finally deciding to take the fight seriously, opening with a Force push, and Kenobi being affected by that push, does not make him vastly more powerful than Obi-Wan. You’re inferring your conclusion from practically thin air.]]

You’re downplaying the event severely, it really is humorous. The fact of the matter is that, as I said before (and supported) Kenobi was KO’d for a good six seconds. That isn’t a simple Force Push, that’s Dooku winning the duel. In a 1v1 duel, Kenobi being out for six seconds would have been ample time for Dooku to end him then and there, but because of Anakin’s presence, Dooku wasn’t able to do so. The event is a clear demonstration that Dooku was more powerful than Kenobi, and your vain attempts to argue otherwise do nothing but delay the only conclusion anyone could possibly come to.



Dooku is Kenobi’s superior.

[[The games don’t necessarily contradict the novel. “The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential. Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly. And there were ways to fight that didn't involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers. Floors tipped underfoot; severed beams stabbed like javelins; overloaded circuits exploded.” There isn’t much detail here besides just general descriptions of attacks. The games fulfill the gaps with the cutscenes. It even says ”Invisible fists [...] punched with the power of pile drivers” so the Force push in the cutscene should be fair game. That makes it two times Galen was telekinetically pushed or grabbed by an equal/inferior opponent in the same fight.

Not to mention that this kind of nitpicking is kind of silly. There are multiple instances where Force-users have been successfully telekinetically attacked (e.g. Cade Skywalker vs. Karness Muur, Shadow Guard vs. Galen Marek, Arcann vs. the Outlander, Bastila Shan vs. Revan, etc.) and it’s not an indication of superiority. Two times in a fight suddenly signifying it seems arbitrary and groundless.]]

The issue with your argument here is that the quote from the novel (which I’ve established takes precedence) does contradict the game. The only times in the game that Vader “ragdolls” Galen are in the very cutscenes you provided, both of which occur before the duel actually started in earnest. Neither of the versions of events displayed in the game showcase either Vader or Galen utilizing the Force to throw loose objects, throw severed beams like javelins, or attempt to overpower one another with telekinesis. What happens in either version of the game (which differ in themselves and are not consistent at all) does not align with the novel’s versions of events at all. The ragdolling in the game’s cutscenes occur at the very start of the fight, this is what the novel says happened:

“Lord Vader, deal with the boy. Properly, this time.”
The Dark Lord was already moving. The red blade of his lightsaber flared into life, casting bloody shadows across the room. There was no discussion. He offered no threats. It was clear he intended only to complete what he had failed to finish on Corellia.
The apprentice knew exactly what to expect. They had dueled many times before. He had learned how to fight at the hands of the man in the black suit—the man whose face had been forever hidden from him. He knew the intimacies of his refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight. He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles.
He thought he was ready—and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.
A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked.
Then the apprentice straightened and, with a sweep of his left arm, blew the missiles away. He blocked a savage slash that would have cut him in two and another that would have lifted his head clean from his shoulders. Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master’s belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader’s helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily.


What comes immediately after this is the quote you provided in your counter. There is nothing present in the novel about Vader ragdolling/pushing Galen in the same manner or timeframe as presented in the game cutscenes. The two different mediums are irreconcilable with one another, and so, you have no argument.

The book and game versions of the duel also begin/take place in different areas of the Death Star’s bridge, the game versions themselves differ in where the duel begins. You simply can’t mesh conflicting accounts and continue to posture as if you have any kind of valid argument. There’s also the point that Dooku’s overpowering Kenobi happens twice almost consecutively, with very little fighting between the in-between the ragdoll events. Where as in Galen vs Vader, there are large periods of time between TK “dominations”. You could argue this as Dooku getting lucky, but if that’s the case, then virtually every similar event is due to luck, and that argument opens up a whole new can of worms.

[[Prove Dooku’s confusion negatively affected his performance.* The text attributes Dooku’s disinclination to attack to Kenobi’s speed, not his surprise or anything like that. In your second quote he’s not even confused, but extremely confident and so focused on attacking he’s not even noticing how well Kenobi’s defending. Kenobi’s speed feats are valid.]]

Clearly it affected him negatively, based on the fact that Dooku was forced to retreat. Retreat implies that he’s losing ground, being pressed too hard to effectively counter, being overpowered, all of which are negatives for the Count. The text in the novel focuses on Kenobi’s speed via Soresu to be why Dooku is being pressed, but the novelization’s text does not disqualify confusion as a factor, because it very clearly is a factor, it’s directly stated that his confusion was a direct cause of his need to retreat. Both of these things are true, one being true does not preclude the other from being so.

If you’re working in a factory and you’ve been doing the same thing for twenty years, you get accustomed to it, you know how the machines work, how the work line operates, you understand it. If suddenly a new technology is introduced to the job that you don’t know how to operate, even after training, your productivity is going to suffer from being faced by something new that you’re not accustomed to working with. The same applies to this duel. Dooku was accustomed to the Jedi using their non-native forms, and when they shifted forms and suddenly started moving with far greater precision and strength, Dooku was confused, he hadn’t been used to this new strategy, and it cost him.

[[Also, if you think Dooku’s confusion hindered him, then you not applying that same standard to Kenobi is a double standard.* He would have been just as caught off-guard by Dooku’s unexpected Force push. The second time it’s even stated ”Dooku abruptly shifted tactics” when he brought in telekinesis, so it would obviously be true for the first time as well.]]

There’s a key difference here, unfortunately for you. Dooku’s confusion as a hindrance is highlighted explicitly within a source. The idea that Kenobi would have been confused and thus similarly hindered by Dooku’s Force push is, in its entirety, a speculative proposition. So unless you can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that Kenobi would have been similarly hindered to Dooku due to the Force push, your argument here fails.

Using my previous analogy as an example here as well. You can even compare this to a sudden use of TK. The Jedi were using it against Dooku early in the fight and it is never once said or implied to have caught Dooku off guard, but a sudden shift in lightsaber forms did catch him by surprise, confused him, and caused him to retreat. There’s a visible difference between these events, and they aren’t comparable.

[[The quote is saying Kenobi’s move was a technique of Soresu… not that using Soresu somehow automatically makes the user faster than normal, which makes zero sense. And Ataru is the form that’s all about speed and agility, not Soresu; Kenobi was slow with it at first because he was holding back.]]

That’s….not what the quote is saying at all. Let’s look at it again.



“he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi’s Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.”


-RotS novel.


Dooku registered the “source” of the “blinding defensive velocity”.

Velocity means “quickness of motion” or “rapidity of movement”, in a word “speed.”

Dooku is ascribing Kenobi’s reactions and speed to his mastery of Soresu. I.e, Kenobi’s combat speeds and Soresu are intertwined.

As well, “Star Wars Galaxies” addressed saber disciplines, giving some insight into how the forms actually work.

http://web.archive.org/web/20111124001646/http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/en_US/players/content.vm?id=66843&resource=features

Note these quotes specifically:

"Jedi Focus is the art and practice of meditation to enhance one's energies towards offensive capabilities in combat. "

"Jedi Stances teach a Jedi how to hold their bodies so that the Force is channeled through them to master their defensive abilities in combat. "

What’s being said here is that the forms aren’t reliant wholly on technical skill, but also focus heavily on appropriate channeling of the Force into the user’s physical abilities to make the form work properly. Kenobi and Anakin have mastered Soresu and Djem-So respectively, their expertise lies in channeling the Force for use with those forms, they are less skilled at doing so with their mock forms which they employed with Dooku at the duel’s start.

This ties back into my initial point regarding this. The source of Kenobi’s apparently newfound speed is Soresu, because he’s mastered how to properly apply the Force to augmenting himself for it.

[[Or maybe it’s just Anakin’s irrational side exaggerating an innocuous occurrence, which, as I have proven, in reality doesn’t mean Tyranus is more powerful than Kenobi? Him being stunned is obvious since he hit the ground really hard. Skywalker was on the floor for 12 seconds when Dooku kicked him - twice as long as Kenobi - yet just moments prior he was destroying Dooku. You, like Anakin, seem to be blowing irrelevant details out of proportion, and desperately grasping for a straw to latch onto to claim some tiny victory in an overall losing battle.]]

The text does not imply in any way that Anakin didn’t know what he was talking about, and you have no way of proving that this was Anakin being irrational. Anakin knows how the Force works, and Dooku’s dismissing Kenobi still strikes fear into Anakin. Not that this matters much anyway, as I’ve already proven that Kenobi was indeed kek’d by Dooku, and that it wasn’t just an “innocuous occurrence”.

[[That kind of incremental increase doesn’t make any sense. Are Force-users locked from being at a certain power level, and after a steady, gradual rise they jump an ”enormous” degree all of a sudden when they advance a level in Gillard’s system, because they for some reason simply cannot be only a small bit above their earlier level but inexplicably have to get a big boost out of nowhere? It’s more likely Gillard is generalizing: he’s saying that in most cases, those on level nine are vastly superior to those on level eight, who in turn are in most cases vastly superior to those on level seven. Colloquially, it’s normal to say things like “cats have fur” even though there are cats without fur. In that very interview he gives an example of a character who is ”an eight bordering on nine”: Mace Windu. So there is precedent for Obi-Wan being on that level as well, and therefore being able to do as well against a tier 9 combatant as he did.


And none of your quotes state Vader was weakened.* The junior novel affirms Vader was using his negative emotions to bolster his power.]]

From Nick Gillard’s commentary of RotS from the blu-ray, Title 1, Chapter 23, 1 hour in.

"Anakin becomes a level 9. George knows the levels, myself and George talked about levels and how it was. But it's more, it's not like a black belt, it's more like a Richter scale. So the difference between eight, Obi's an eight, so the difference between an eight and a nine is enormous."


Gillard states that difference between tier 8 and tier 9 is enormous, and he uses Kenobi and Anakin directly as benchmarks for each tier. This quote is a near explicit confirmation of Anakin’s superiority to Kenobi within the system established by the tiers.

Concession accepted.

[[Vader not sensing Obi-Wan also actually aids my argument here. In Visions of the Future, Mara Jade explains to Luke Skywalker that while he has indeed been ”gaining tremendous power in the Force,” his traumatic experiences in Dark Empire caused him to be ”paralyzed with fear” over the possibility of misusing that power. As a result, Luke began to overcompensate, ”using the Force like a heavy club”, arrogantly ”trying to save everyone and do everything.” This led to myriad rash and foolish decisions over the course of his career. Mara then elucidates that ”The Force isn’t just about power,” “the more you tap into it for raw power, the less you’re able to hear its guidance over the noise of your own activity.” In his own fear and arrogance, Luke had failed to truly listen to the Force, instead calling on it for power to, bluntly speaking, impose his own will on the world. The way he blames himself for Builder With Vines’ death reflects that perfectly: he’s overcome with guilt and anger, thinking it was his responsibility and obligation to save him, even if it meant stripping him of his autonomy as a living being by pinning him to the ceiling with the Force. This echoes Luke’s father, Anakin, who likewise used the Force as a tool in trying to save Padme, believing he was doing the right thing when in reality he was only acting out his own selfish desires. The fact he didn’t sense Obi-Wan arriving on Mustafar indicates he was calling on the Force only for power, which supports my point. It doesn’t make him weaker at all.]]

Lmao, what? The quotes literally state that Anakin’s rage was what was limiting him. The quote from the Unleashed statue even directly mentions “confusion” which I’ve already established with Dooku is clearly something that hinders performance.



“Despite his powers and years of attunement to Obi-Wan, his rage had blocked his ability to sense his former Master's presence on Mustafar until he saw the Jedi standing in the hatch of Padme's starship”


- Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader


" Now, he raises his lightsaber in battle against his former mentor. The burning lava erupting around Anakin echoes the tortured emotions roiling within him. He is filled with a seething maelstrom of pain, confusion and anger. "


-Anakin Unleashed Statue


HK-47 corroborates that mental state is vital to how well a Jedi can use the Force based on information given to him by Darth Revan, who is a veritable expert in exploiting the weaknesses of Jedi mental states.


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7087594-kreiastateofmind.png


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7087593-kreiastateofmind2.png


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7087592-kreiastateofmind3.png


Anakin is a maelstrom of emotion, and HK posits that mental state dictates power. Anakin is explicitly in a negative mental state, and so his power will suffer, he won’t be able to call on the Force the way he would be able to if he was in a normal state of mind. He could be as powerful as Luke, DE Sidious, Valkorion or whoever, and he would still suffer the negative effects of his poor mental state.


Using Luke as an example was also a poor decision on your part, considering Luke himself has visibly been restricted by mental hindrances.

Luke closed his eyes, feeling his way through the insulation of peacefulness he'd constructed for himself across these past months. Beyond it, he tried to find himself. But at first he could feel nothing but the weight of his grief, and the one thing that kept him functioning while carrying that burden-his desire to be reunited with Mara. Reunited when the time came. Reunited in the Force.


Then there was the other weight, the one he had largely slipped from his shoulders, the weight of his responsibility-to the Order, to his family, to the galaxy.


To the living.


Of course he had shrugged it off. No man could carry two such weights for any length of time. He would be crushed beneath them.


But he had to carry the one he had set aside, didn't he?


I'm sorry, Mara. Knowing it to be a betrayal, Luke slowly, carefully stepped out from under his grief.


It didn't leave him entirely-just as Mara was still part of him, the pain of losing her would always be with him, too.


But suddenly it was easier to breathe, to think. He wondered how long it had been since he had truly thought clearly.


And curiously, it didn't feel like a betrayal at all. Then there was that other weight, the weight of duty. He had carried it throughout his adult life, and at times it had ground him down. But at other times it had sustained him, helped keep him alive.


Perhaps that was why he had been so willing to abandon it: it had been keeping him alive at a time when he did not want to live.


With meticulous care, he picked up and shouldered that other weight.


-Legacy of the Force: Fury


The same grief that Luke is talking about here is what caused him to fight an extended duel with Lumiya, who would otherwise have been utterly incapable of posing a threat to Luke in any capacity. So if someone as extraordinarily powerful as Luke can be brought low by grief, why can’t Anakin?

Valiant effort, but no dice.

[[Finally, Gillard clearly states ”Anakin has learned the fighting [...] but he hasn’t learned the mental side of it” and that ”He took Force LSD. And that’s what made him a nine. So that’s dangerous. It’s dangerous because he hasn’t done it the right way. But it’s still a nine, you know? It’s still something that you need to deal with.” He also prefaces those statements with ”The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters,” making it very clear his statements about Vader being a 9 are in the context of the fight, but that’s obvious from the below scans anyway. Ergo, Mustafar Vader, despite all his emotional issues, is still very much a level 9 combatant whose level 9 abilities need to be dealt with. The arguments for him being hindered never made much sense, as he evidently wouldn’t be a tier 9 combatant were he weaker than usual.]]

Yes, Anakin is indeed still a tier 9. He still possesses all his skill, but as I just went over, his ability to call on the Force is hindered by his mental state. So I agree with Gillard, but you’re once again missing the point.

Skywalker is hindered. He cannot call on his full power to dominate Kenobi. That does not mean he’s not still a tier 9, it means he’s not operating at full strength. There’s a significant difference. The sabers portion of the match was explained by Gillard directly, as well as other sources I provided earlier, saying that Kenobi knew every move Anakin could think of, that he knows how Anakin fights, how he thinks, etc. So you’ve not discredited any of my arguments, going back to the early posts of this debate, all your quote does is agree with me.

[[KotOR Revan is beneath TPM Yoda, TPM Mace, and AotC Dooku - even after two posts, there has not been any attempt made to refute this (unless he’s deliberately waiting for the last post so I can’t respond). Per Gillard, Anakin’s transition from 8 to 9 is ”enormous,” and per my third post to ArkhamAsylum3, the Anakin who clobbered Dooku in 12 seconds was still an 8. Sidious and RotS Yoda are both 9’s and would therefore slaughter Dooku even quicker. Vong Krayt is probably above Sidious and Yoda per the logic chain in my first post.]]

So your point here was as follows:

(With this mind, the figures relevant to Revan here are Yoda, Sidious, and Dooku. Yoda and Sidious are the most powerful Jedi and Sith ever, respectively, and equals/near-equals, as articulated in my debate with ArkhamAsylum3, placing them beyond Revan as of Knights of the Old Republic and the Sith Emperor - another superior of Revan - as of both the novel and the video game. Yoda also scales above Revan even as of The Phantom Menace per The Official Star Wars Fact File: "Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to walk the corridors of the Jedi Temple." This ties into Tyranus in that he is close to Yoda in Attack of the Clones as articulated in ArkhamAsylum3's first post, making him, at the very least, an extremely good fight for KotOR Revan. More likely, however, is that Dooku is in fact Revan's superior, considering only a Jedi Master as strong as Yoda - hint: not Revan - could survive being bombarded with Dooku's Force powers per The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection # 3: "Dark side powers enabled Sith Lord Darth Tyranus (Count Dooku) to manipulate the Force at will, hurling objects or casting devastating energy bolts. Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack.". As should be obvious by now, Darth Krayt's scaling from all these individuals puts him immensely above Revan.)


I’ll address this here, and you can feel free to try refuting me in your conclusion.

Firstly, reliance on the Fact File does you no favors. Its veracity is in question due to it being an in-universe source written long after Revan’s death. Historians are not an authority on how powerful a Force user who lived 4,000 years prior to their own life was. The New Essential Chronology is a source written in-universe in the same period of time, millennia after the events of KotOR, and is a source that Leland Chee has expressly said likely gets less accurate the further back in time the events being discussed are, due to lost or altered information.

"Also, as you go further back in history, the chances that information was lost or altered increases. For now, consider the NEC as based on the best information that in-universe historians have."


The only quotes you have to support this scaling are questionable at best, and unless you can prove that they’re 100% legitimately true, your scaling is useless.

[[Krayt would butcher Revan about as quickly as he dispensed with those Imperial Knights, so this was a waste of space and characters.


Also, seeing as you outright ignored my argument, I’ll repost it here:* “And he only got burned out after he stopped exerting himself; he can keep up a fight for far longer than a few seconds even seven years later when his condition is much worse against Cade Skywalker.”]]

Interesting that you make that claim but have yet to provide any compelling evidence that Krayt wouldn’t be massacred by Revan in the duel’s opening seconds.

Just as well, Krayt contending with Cade doesn’t negate any of my argument at all. If you want that fight to mean something, then you should have tried harder to prove that Cade wouldn’t also get blitzed by Revan. None of this changes the fact that Krayt was exhausted after a duel with Imperial Knights that only lasted a few seconds, and none of this changes the fact that after his duel with Cade, he had to enter stasis almost immediately because of his condition.


“Cade’s escape has left the Emperor weakened, and his regime shaken.


Darth Wyyrlok, seeing the deterioration of his Master, has decided to seek another way to heal the Emperor...”


—Star Wars: Legacy #27


Krayt’s dialogue with Wyyrlok immediately after the duel is as follows:

“Lord Krayt!”


“Get me to the stasis chamber. The battle with Skywalker has cost me.”


So the duel very clearly took everything Krayt had out of him.

Krayt isn’t going ten rounds with Revan if he’s exhausted after a single round with Imperial Knights, and in desperate need of stasis after three rounds with Cade. There’s also the matter of Revan’s own feats and scaling, which you haven’t come remotely close to debunking in any fashion. Revan’s scaling from Malak and Exar Kun is left untouched, and your attempts to debunk the scaling from Thon have been pathetic.

[[”By the end of the Sith-Imperial War [...] The Yuuzhan Vong implants used to extend his life begin to consume him.” How am I misreading it? It says ”begin to consume him,” not anything that would denote the coral seeds had been devouring him prior. Your own quote even says they were used to ”extend his life,” which goes against that notion. That healing trances were attempted to remove the spores doesn’t mean they were killing him before.]]

“By the end” already means that the implants were devouring him prior to the end of the war, weakening him, which has been my argument all along, so thank you for agreeing with me. Everything else in the quote is thus covered in “by the end”, which means the healing trances and Force healing have been in use prior to the events of the war’s end, as I argued. “By the end” translates to “before the final moment”, the use of “by” is what infers that the statement is made in the context of “prior to” the war’s end.

The quote acknowledges that the spores “begin to consume him” and that he knows “his time is limited,'' he's aware of his limited time because of the spores consuming him.


The implants were used to extend his life when he got them initially, when the Vong were experimenting on him. The quote is not saying that the Sith used them to extend Krayt’s life. It’s rather clear that the implants are what is threatening his life.

1: War occurs
2: Spores begin to consume him “by” (before) the war’s end.
3: Healing methods have not been working to solve this issue.

The quote is pretty straight forward, and you twisting it around won’t fool anyone.

[[No, my point was that simply because a character hasn’t shown something doesn’t mean they are incapable of it or that their power level is beneath that feat. I provided Krayt scaling from a feat the likes of which Revan has never demonstrated replicating or scaling from as a response to you doing the same with Revan scaling from Thon’s feat. They are entirely different in nature and thus cannot be compared. Your comparison to hammering a nail and achieving escape velocity is a false analogy because both can be converted to a common unit of measurement like newtons.* You haven’t quantified how impressive Thon’s feat would be in terms of telekinesis or any other ability, so you have no basis to assert it puts Revan above Krayt.**]]

I assume you’re talking about Krayt’s scaling from Wyyrlok via Andeddu? In short, that comparison doesn’t work, and I’ll explain why here.

Andeddu and Wyyrlok compete relatively evenly with one another for almost the entirety of the duel before Wyyrlok gains the upper hand, and it aids Wyyrlok that Andeddu was all he had to focus on. Bane, by contrast, was not only battling with Andeddu in a mental struggle, but was also performing one of the most complex tasks known to Force users, accessing a Holocron.




However, it was possible to circumvent the gatekeeper, but only by one strong enough to survive the attempt. If Bane's will faltered, or if the power of Andeddu's Holocron was more than he could handle, then his mind would be destroyed. His identity would be devoured by the talisman, leaving his body a mindless husk. It was a desperate gamble, but there was no other way to get what he needed. Not in time to help him against Zannah.

"If you will not give me what I want," he shouted at the gatekeeper, "then I will take it!"

Reaching out with the Force, he plunged his awareness into the depths of the pyramid's inner workings as the gatekeeper let loose a howl of impotent rage. Thrusting his consciousness directly into the capstone, Bane let his will invade the small four-sided talisman just as he himself had invaded the stronghold of Andeddu's cult back on Prakith.

For a brief instant he could feel the burning inferno of power trapped within threatening to consume his identity. Bane welcomed the pain, feeding on it and transforming it along with all the frustration and anger he had built up over the past four days into a raging, swirling storm of dark side energy. Then, bit by bit, he began to impose order on the chaos, bending it to his will.

Using the Force, Bane began to make subtle adjustments to the Holocron's crystal matrix. He began to manipulate the arrangement of the filaments, twisting, turning, and shifting them with subtle, immeasurable adjustments as he worked his way deeper and deeper into the data in pursuit of what he sought. In many ways it was like slicing a secure computer network, only a million times more complex.

With each adjustment, the gatekeeper's image flickered and cried out, but Bane was oblivious to the simulation's artificial suffering. For several hours he continued his work, his body perspiring heavily, until he finally found what he sought: the ritual of essence transference; Andeddu's secret of eternal life.

With one final push of the Force, he reached out with his mind and seized what he had been searching for. With the aid of the gatekeeper the information would have taken weeks to absorb and learn. Bane, however, had gone right to the source. The knowledge streamed directly from the Holocron into his mind, raw and unfiltered. Thousands of images flooded his consciousness, an explosion of sights, sounds, and thoughts that caused him to drop the Holocron to the floor, breaking the connection.

-Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil



Wyyrlok and Bane begin by doing the same thing, attempting to assert their dominance over Andeddu, but Wyyrlok destroys Andeddu outright. Bane dominates Andeddus’ will while simultaneously performing an incredibly complex task, and then keeps Andeddu under his thrall for the duration of his tinkering with the holocron. The two feats either aren’t the same or Bane’s is more impressive by virtue of the feat’s context, and so you can’t use these to scale Krayt from Bane. Your argument here is moot.

Both had difficulty with Andeddu, the difference is that once Bane gained control of the situation, he was able to thrall Andeddu and perform complex tasks. Wyyrlok struggled, gained control, and siezed the opportunity to kill Andeddu.

As for your hand-waving of the Thon feat, but you failed to prove that the comparison doesn’t work. I already explained the feat’s significance and how it can be quantified and compared to other feats, your suggestion that it isn’t quantifiable does nothing to discredit anything I’ve argued thus far. It’s exactly as I describe, a hammer and nail vs a rocket. The Force is the Force, telepathically dominating a city populace is entirely different than lifting a throwing a tree, but one is clearly of a far larger scope and scale, and is indicative of greater power than the other. Thon’s domination of Ambria’s dark force may be different from telekinetic feats, but one clear requires greater strength to pull off.

If you’re referring to Cade’s TK feat, well then I already showed that Revan is capable of performing similar in his weakened state on the Foundry. Revan was throwing asteroids, forty of them so hard that they were shattering on impact with the ground, which is indicative of extreme force.

https://imgur.com/iCn1hir

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/abl/throw-asteroids-4

The game also notes that the asteroids were “giant”.

https://imgur.com/iCn1hir

Revan notes that he was severely weakened, that his psyche was split in two, he’d also just endured three-hundred years of tortures and mental war with Vitiate and the Dread Masters. Needless to say, Revan was far from peak shape. It’s not a stretch to say that KotOR Revan is stronger than he was on the Foundry, and even if he isn’t, if KotOR Revan is even just “close” to Foundry Revan, that puts him well out of Cade’s scope of power by mere feat comparison.

[[And by the way, Cade’s feat is far from “a basic showing of telekinesis” - the ship was huge, and he threw it far into the distance. Even if we assume Revan smashing boulders is “comparable,” you haven’t proven KotOR Revan scales from Foundry Revan to the same extent that Vong Krayt scales from drug addict Cade.*]]

Addressed above.

[[The Sith sorceress calling ”on more power than any individual had asked of the dark side before” doesn’t mean the energies of the resulting devastation would be greater than those of Nathema’s dark side nexus. This is because the power of Vitiate’s ritual that caused him absorb the nexus doesn’t have to be greater than that of the nexus either; the kinetic energy one uses to move food to their mouth isn’t necessarily greater than the chemical energy contained in that food. And so if the Nathema ritual isn’t more potent than the Nathema nexus, the Ambria ritual purportedly being more potent than the Nathema ritual doesn’t make it more potent than the Nathema nexus either.


Even were I wrong on that, it wouldn’t matter since Ood Bnar, the writer of the Tales of the Jedi Companion, or any of the ”Jedi scholars” who studied the Ambria ritual, aren’t even aware of Vitiate or Nathema, so their word doesn’t carry any value apropos your comparison. The Old Republic Encyclopedia, which is written from the point of view of over 350 years later, disagrees with them regardless, labeling Nathema ”the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see.” - assuming of course that the Ambria ritual even happened after the Nathema ritual, which you haven’t proven.*]]

You’re spending an awful lot of effort trying to address a topic I posited was “possibly” true, rather than addressing the main point, which is Thon’s feat. Addressing an aside topic rather than trying to legitimately counter the main point is an interesting choice, especially in a debate that you’re losing. So my argument here will remain the same as it was in the beginning. That Revan scales massively above Thon, and thus scales massively above Thon’s Ambria feat, which is “possibly” greater in scope than the Nathema ritual.

[[With that out of the way, the only hype we have for the Sith spirits is the fact that they were going to consume the system - but again, given we don’t know what ”consume” actually means in this context, and we have no timeframe for it, their actual strength can’t be quantified; if a person threatened to raze Mount Everest to the ground by hand, it would take them an inordinate amount of time and wouldn’t put them anywhere near mountain-level.


Ergo, Thon’s feat is all around unquantifiable.]]

The most basic definition for “consume” is that the dark side spirits would come to encompass the entire system, their influence/power (the nexus) would spread to consume the system. Which still works perfectly for me in that it means Thon still bound enough dark side power to encompass a star system. The ultimate point is that the nexus is “threatening to consume” the system, the phrasing in the quote makes it clear that the spirits on Ambria are an active threat of some sort, they are dangerous, and they are threatening to spread their influence. So even using the most basic possible definition, as I am, the scaling Revan receives from the feat is vast.

I already addressed your earlier claim that the feat is unquantifiable, I don’t feel it necessary to teach you the lesson a third time.

[[Blurbs don’t have to include all of history. For example, the one from Darth Plagueis doesn’t even know if the titular character is going to die despite everyone who has seen a little obscure indie film called Revenge of the Sith already knowing he will, meaning the blurb isn’t including anything past its events in the in-universe chronology.]]

The blurb here is posing the question to the reader, nothing more. It’s point is to get the reader interested. It is telling the reader that Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord in history, and it is asking the reader a question. The question has no bearing on the lore.

[[There is no reason to think it’s different in the case of the Bane blurbs and force an unnecessary contradiction between them and Sidious’ accolades other than if you have somehow happened to have made an embarrassing blunder in an online debate that has the risk of costing you the win. We should always strive to reconcile all ostensible contradictions and tossing evidence out should be a last resort. A simple solution here would be to simply accept that the Bane blurbs only go up to Bane’s time and not past it, so as to not contradict Sidious’ accolades, which the grammar of the blurbs allows.]]

Except one of your Bane blurbs explicitly acknowledges the existence of both Vader and Sidious. So the blurbs you cited are taking Sith from across history into account.

https://2img.net/u/4212/12/22/43/album/pr/blurb_12_800x600.png




So this argument is laughable. Weak argument is weak.

[[On another note, Leland Chee has also proclaimed all “most powerful” quotes to be subjective as well, yet in this debate you’ve used one of Exar Kun’s most powerful Sith quotes in your arguments and referenced Vitiate’s, so you’re committing a double standard by dismissing blurbs on the basis of Chee declaring them subjective yet making use of most powerful quotes which Chee has likewise denounced.* He’s also said that any and all ”rankings” “are for gameplay purposes only.” That would include the Darth Malak > Exar Kun quote you employed. In essence, he’s saying there are no narrative power hierarchies outside Gillard’s system. Are you really sure you want to appeal to this guy? Because, ultimately, who even gave him the authority to dictate what is and isn’t valid for debating purposes? No, really, where does his authority come from?]]

It isn’t a double standard, as I’ve never seen this quote before. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. That said, none of my arguments are harmed by this at all.

My core scaling does not rely on Revan’s scaling from Kun's GOAT quote. Malak is, regardless of the quote, far more powerful than Kun or Freedon Nadd, and is by extension (from Nadd) far more powerful than Naga Sadow. Malak is also far superior to the Exiles via the Star Map scaling, wherein it’s established that the Exiles’ power source was the Star Map on Korriban, that power destroyed them, and Malak dominated the Star Forge itself, which is unfathomably more potent than the maps. As well, Palpatine scales vastly above Bane via the Rule of Two’s inherent scaling anyway, rendering the Bane quotes contradicted anyway, so all of my scaling holds.

Chee is just saying trans-history GOAT quotes don’t hold because it’s easier for writers to, well, write, when they aren’t bound by another character that’s already established to be more powerful than anyone they could possibly write about.You can’t extrapolate from Chee what isn’t even implied.

The ultimate kicker here though is something I find rather hilarious, and it’s that your own argument here eviscerates a previous point of yours. The Bane blurbs are GOAT quotes, and if Chee says that GOAT quotes are subjective, and thus can’t be used to establish power level, then the entirety of you Bane/Wyyrlok scaling is completely and utterly decimated beyond all hope of recovery. What’s more is that, based on your own line of thinking here, the initial scaling you tried to develop, involving Yoda, Windu, and Dooku, falls apart. So by your own logic in this debate, Yoda and Windu cannot scale above Revan. So we’re left to compare other scaling.

Revan has scaling from:

1: Malak and his inferiors.
2: Thon
3: Asteroid throwing
4: SF and Korriban Gauntlets

Krayt has scaling from:

1: Nothing.
2: Also nothing.


So uhh…..











As for where Chee gets his authority from. He gets it from the forum rules.

(2) All formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron, are law. The rules include, but are not limited to, applicable and relevant material from the following link: 


http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html?fbclid=IwAR0Eii9CwDB7KeBl8RFqZf_fWG_H1uL8CZIjkQK9dFTcmvCxKVLSjmuK4Gw#Licensing




I’ll give ya one guess who came up with these guidelines.




In regards to Chee’s stance on game mechanics, he’s also said that these mechanics are kept as in line with continuity as possible. So what he says doesn’t mean the mechanics aren’t valid or canon. He’s also saying that they aren’t used because when writing a novel there are other factors to consider, but in these debates, we assume everything is on equal turf, no special factors to consider.

"Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.

But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.

Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction."



- Leland Chee





Conclusion
_______________________



So, just to summarize.

-Revan scales enormously over Darth Malak, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Naga Sadow, and the Exiles, for various reasons.

-Revan stands to any and all feats and/or scaling you have presented here, and surpasses them.


-Krayt does not scale beyond Dooku or Anakin from Kenobi because both Dooku and Anakin are far superior to Kenobi.

-Krayt’s scaling from Wyyrlok fails because your scaling for Bane fails, and because Bane’s feat with Andeddu is superior to/entirely different from Wyyrlok’s anyway.

-Leland Chee destroyed your scaling for me.


You lose, now…

Forgot my character count. 22010 characters.

LOTL wrote:Excellent post. Nice thinking and construction. 

That said, the fact that these misconceptions about the IH battle really are still prevalent is cringeworthy tbh. I really have to start to respond to them generally

This again

@darthbane77 Wonderful post.

xolthol wrote:@darthbane77 Wonderful post.

Thanks.

Nice job db. Excellent defense of Revan.

Excellent post.