Darth Vader (AncientPower) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix)

Darth Vader as of Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
Darth Malgus as of Star Wars the Old Republic: Legacy of the Sith

Rules:
- Two months between posts
-  15,000 character limit
- Three posts and one conclusion post each

Special Agreed Rules:
- No arguments over Darth Malgus's prime
- No arguments over Darth Malgus's inferiority to the Outlander

Darth Vader is born as and is the embodiment of the Force:


Anakin is the chosen one, and even when Anakin turns into Darth Vader, he's still the chosen one.


Controlling Skywalker is equal to controlling the universe/everything, Palpatine's control of Darth Vader is what causes his dominion over the universe:

NOTE: This scene was only removed due to George Lucas's denial of the existence of Sith spirits:
https://www.starwars.com/video/ghosts-of-mortis-episode-featurette

Places of absolute darkness are outside of the power of the Force Priestesses:


The Force Priestesses embody the connection of the living Force to the cosmic Force:


The dark side of the Force has been growing every day during the Clone Wars and a portion of its power is so great that it stuns Master Yoda into near defeatism against the Sith:


As Darth Vader represents the balance of the Force, when he fell he 'destroyed' the balance, because of his becoming a Sith and thus cast the universe into darkness after becoming more machine than man:





Darth Vader, already the center of the now destroyed balance of the Force, now also co-owns the supremacy of the dark side of the Force built for tens of thousands of years and its dominion:







This is signified when the birth scream of Darth Vader is tantamount to all the dead of the Clone Wars dying a final time:

Last of the Jedi: Against the Empire wrote:"It happened about a year ago," he said, lowering his voice to a ragged whisper. "Near the very end of the Clone Wars. A scream was heard. A scream so terrible and so loud that it echoed throughout the building and made the sensors go crazy. It was said that one med worker lost his hearing. Permanently. The med workers searched and searched for the source of the sound, but there was... nothing. There was only a handful of patients at that time. It had seemed to come from everywhere and nowhere, but no patient had done it." Jako's voice had lowered to a whisper. "It was as though all the dead of the Clone Wars had screamed their death cries at the same time, then gone back to being dead."

Ferus knew that in his slightly incoherent way Jako was trying to spook him, and it had worked. Just not in the way he'd thought. Jako winked. "Enjoy the night shift." He closed his eyes again, and, smiling, was asleep in seconds. Ferus thought once more about Vader's prosthetics. They were extensive, from a breath-mask to vision enhancement to possible artificial limbs. He was fairly certain that Vader had at least one artificial hand. And he was regulated by what seemed to be a complex bio-system within that suit.

For the first time, Ferus wondered what awful injuries he must have sustained. What had happened to the guy? He had been chasing the wrong idea. Vader, whoever he was, must have been in terrible pain.

Darth Vader is now the most terrifying evil to face in the universe:



Darth Vader's fall to the dark side is also far from over:

Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader wrote:More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.

--

Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals.

Despite the injuries on Mustafar, Darth Vader's Midichlorian count is still 'incredible' and he has gradually learned to sustain his body, further replenishing his lost bodily power:


Vader has freed himself from pain using the Force since the battle of Yavin IV, achieving greater mastery of himself, and has become a far better combatant because of it:



If he can kill Emperor Palpatine then his power would grow immensely, despite any possible bodily limitations:

Vader: The Ultimate Guide wrote:Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known… Vader, who was all too aware of the Sith rule of two that mandated a single master and single apprentice at any time, has his own designs on Luke. Palpatine’s omniscience, however, had changed the rules of engagement. Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before.

This is the 'unstoppable' power Darth Vader was meant to achieve:




Darth Vader after slaughtering the separatists had achieved the power necessary to be the 'all-powerful', 'super-Sith' as put by George Lucas:

George Lucas, The Force Interview 2010 wrote:he made a pact with the devil, to be able to become all powerful, but of course when he did that, she didn't want anything to do with him anymore, so he lost her, once you are powerful, being able to bring her back from the dead. Well if I can do that then I can be emperor of the universe.

Now, there’s a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it’s left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It’s left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force.

But Darth Vader still sees the Emperor as being beyond even the power he held then:

Vader: The Ultimate Guide wrote:But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known… Vader, who was all too aware of the Sith rule of two that mandated a single master and single apprentice at any time, has his own designs on Luke. Palpatine’s omniscience, however, had changed the rules of engagement. Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before.

George Lucas explains this further, they are partners now:



As of Return of the Jedi, the Emperor's power is nearing 'tier 10' which is beyond any power in the universe:


In the context of the timetable of the above quote, Luke Skywalker is or at the very least soon will be powerful enough to conquer Darth Vader and the Emperor if he defeats his father:






Luke Skywalker himself fully believes he can destroy the Emperor:





Whilst Luke is underestimating the Emperor here. It's important to note that, conversely, if Luke joins the dark side it's the end for the Force per Yoda:



Darth Vader then realizes that the Emperor's omniscience and invincibility relative to himself and Luke is fraudulent when the Emperor fails to foresee Luke's defiance:



Now whilst Darth Vader's love for his son is what allows him to actually kill the Emperor, it is telling that an Emperor who is about to achieve a power beyond any in the universe and is already far above an all-powerfulz 'super Sith' Mustafar Vader is still 'vulnerable' to the duo. Returning Vader to his Bespin mindset. It is also very telling that an end to the Force Luke is at this threshold where multiple roads lead him to either total dominion of the darkness and the death of the Emperor before he is the unstoppable strongest power in the entire universe.

• As the Chosen One, Darth Vader is the embodiment of the Force.
  
• As the Chosen One, Darth Vader's internal balance effects the Force and the universe.
  
• Darth Vader destroys the balance of the Force that was already im-balanced.
  
• Darth Vader alongside the Emperor is at the center of this total darkness and commands it in union.
  
• Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor who is beyond the 'all-powerful' 'super-Sith' Darth Vader had been on Mustafar.
  
• Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor who is approaching tier 10, which is beyond all the powers of the universe.
  
• If this Luke Skywalker joins the dark side, it will be the end of the Force.
  
• The Emperor's powers are in reality 'vulnerable' to Luke and his father.
  
• Luke is close enough that per a great many characters, including the Emperor himself, he can destroy the Emperor before he reaches this tier.
  

Darth Vader's power in the Force is cosmically higher than ever, as is the power of the darkness, by Return of the Jedi and is just as capable of becoming the next Emperor figure as Luke is, if he can destroy Palpatine. Whilst the obvious limitations on his body and thus combat make it hard for him to perform against the fully-fledged Jedi and Sith he was once supreme over in a duel, it's his ability to wield his cosmic Force power with his mind that you truly have to overcome:

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader’s legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn’t know the power of the dark side. Vader’s real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments.

Powered by treachery, the Sith Master-apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. Trust was encouraged even while being sabotaged; loyalty was demanded even while betrayal was prized; suspicion was nourished even while honesty was praised.

In some sense, it was survival of the fittest.

Fundamental to Vader’s growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.

Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might have attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn’t made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need everything in his power to shake Vader out of that despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.

Even at Sidious’s own peril…

Yoda Code, The Clone Wars UK Magazine 6.35 wrote:Fights are not won with the power of the body, but with the power of the mind. Such is the way of the Force.

Yoda and Ben can't do this, only Luke can:



The likely retort here is that Yoda is infirm, so that doesn't matter. He isn't or he always has been, you pick:

Rob Coleman, Attack of the Clones Commentary wrote:”Important also to the moment is how Yoda comes out of that fight, in the last shot, when we come back to him, and we see the exhaustion on his face, and we see him, gather his energy up, much like he did after, after he uh, lifts the ship out of the swamp in Empire. You see this moment right here, he’s sort of resolved to what’s happened, and he transforms back into that  800 year old character, and walks off towards his comrades.”

George Lucas, Attack of the Clones Alternative Commentary with Archival Interviews from Cast and Crew wrote:”I very much like the idea, which is continuing from Empire Strikes Back, when you first see him is he’s a funny little green frog, living in the swamps, and then eventually you realize that this is a great Jedi Master, well in this sequence it’s the same idea, you have this funny little wizened old man who’s very old and who walks with a cane and hobbles around, and then he pulls out his laser sword and he jumps around like a kid and he’s really powerful, and then when he finishes he’s all tired and he goes back to using his cane again."

But that's not including the much later addition of The Clone Wars to Yoda's outright growth in 'enlightenment, spirit, balance' at the feet of the manifestation of Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn for decades:



This was previously going to be a scene in Revenge of the Sith and Yoda's training to achieve the power greater than any Sith is noted here:

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Script wrote:QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

YODA: Eternal consciousness.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.

YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

What is new in the proper The Clone Wars version of the discovery is the initial purity achieved by Yoda passing the mere tests required to even begin the training for 'the gift'.

So Yoda as of Attack of the Clones is initially no less  infirm than he is in Empire Strikes Back as of 2002 standards. In 2005, he is apprenticing under Qui-Gon Jinn to learn the path to immortality. By 2014, he has numerous purifying tests before he embarks on the training to become more powerful than any Sith.

Simply put, Darth Vader's darkness is beyond the control of the Force Priestesses, Yoda and Ben. In terms of his stature in the cosmic Force, he is the darkness and the axis upon which the balance of the Force operates. Only Luke Skywalker is capable of conquering Vader and the Emperor, and restoring the Force before it is too late for anything in the Force and the universe to work.

These are the fundamental forces of the universe at work and Darth Malgus is absolutely out of his depth against such a colossus.

Potent opener!

Amazing opener, meta shift is on the horizon.

It is now the 4th of November(my time), exactly three months after my initial opener in Darth Vader vs Darth Malgus. Janix has failed to respond even after being granted an entire extra month to do so. He has therefore been timed out, Lord Vader wins.

THE DEBUNKING

"The Idea is when Darth Vader comes on, in Episode 4, it suddenly has this huge, powerful effect because you know right from the get-go that Vader is Princess Leia's father. You know that when you cut down to Luke, you know that's his son, and you realize that Darth Vader is this pathetic character. He's not this big, all-powerful monster. He's actually this pathetic man who made some wrong choices, who found himself trapped in the world of evil."
- George Lucas

Seems there is a lot to sift through.

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Ancient Power wrote:- As the Chosen One, Darth Vader is the embodiment of the Force.

Darth Vader is still the chosen one; however, his powers are greatly diminished from what they once were.

WIZARDS - ICONS OF EPISODE VI wrote:The Emperor saw in Luke Skywalker a better servant than his father. Luke was young and powerful, while Darth Vader had become a shadow of the man he once was. Palpatine played the two Skywalkers against each other, and in the end, Luke defeated his father.

STAR WARS OFFICIAL FIGURINE COLLECTION #12 wrote:Strikingly, in the story of Anakin Skywalker, the hero must fall from grace -- then later redeem himself -- in order to fulfil the prophecy. Thus, Darth Vader becomes a 'fallen angel' figure. From being the most powerful Jedi, a 'fearless hero ' of the Republic, Anakin falls to the lowest possible point because of his desire for power and security.

Hayden Blackman relaying George Lucas wrote:As I kid, I had always imagined that whatever transformed Anakin into Vader had actually made him more powerful... But when we were working on The Force Unleashed at LucasArts, George Lucas told us that after Revenge of the Sith the Emperor views Vader as "broken" and believes that Anakin's physical transformation into Vader has left him weaker and less useful. The idea that Vader is somehow less powerful than Anakin really depressed me

- George Lucas, A New Hope Alternative Commentary with Archival Interviews from Cast and Crew wrote:Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably.

Hayden Blackman relaying George Lucas wrote:This notion was driven in part from conversations with George Lucas. He explained that after Anakin's devastating defeat in Episode III, the Emperor views Darth Vader as broken, his once formidable connection to the Force weakened by the fact that his body is largely cybernetic and inorganic. Thus, it made sense to us that the Emperor would find and train a replacement.

- George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary wrote:Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

Empire At War Forces of Corruption Prime Guide wrote:Obi-Wan trained Anakin in the ways of the Force, but Skywalker was impatient with the Jedi’s painstaking methods. Skywalker let himself be embraced by the rapturous power of the dark side into the Sith Lord Darth Vader. Kenobi tried to draw him back to the light side, but they engaged in a duel on Mustafar that ultimately ended with Skywalker’s body being consumed by flame. The shell of a man who emerged was sustained by specially built armor and a breathing apparatus.

Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader wrote:Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

George Lucas, Cult of Darth Vader wrote:And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Despite Darth Vader being "inexorably linked to the fate of the galaxy" his shift to redemption is not why the galaxy is changed for the better, but through his act of defeating the Sith. His stats also note that despite his prophetic role, he is not all-powerful as he is listed as CL-19 with a relatively low UTF rating.




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Ancient Power wrote:As the Chosen One, Darth Vader's internal balance effects the Force and the universe.

This meta significance does absolutely nothing for Vader as a combatant, and he is still very capable of losing: Starkiller defeats him twice, Luke defeats him, he is about to die to the Jedi Strike Team before the 501st saves him, and The Emperor kills him. Even Kenobi is still more powerful than him, despite various quotes saying he has deteriorated since ROTS.

Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays wrote:The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.

When Pablo is asked about why Darth Vader loses to Luke, he comments it is because Vader is less skilled and powerful than the young Jedi of the prequels. If Luke Skywalker was the only person capable of defeating him through some cosmic significance then this would've been the perfect time to mention that as well.



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Ancient Power wrote:Darth Vader destroys the balance of the Force that was already im-balanced.

Of the quotes you provided, two refer to his actions: destroying the Jedi, and slaying the Emperor.




And the other is his symbol, as the menacing Darth Vader, casts the galaxy in darkness. It's not some cosmic power.



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Ancient Power wrote:Darth Vader alongside the Emperor is at the center of this total darkness and commands it in union.

Not sure what you're trying to say in this section. The Emperor owns a massively larger portion of the galactic darkness than Vader does. It is his power that consumes the galaxy in the dark side. Palpatine is the threat to destroy the force, not Vader. The destruction of the force will be his victory, not Vader's. The Emperor is the one who can wield “the true nature of the force,” not Vader.

Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:Only Palpatine has been able to spread his darkness completely and totally over an entire galaxy.

The death of the Emperor also is ultimately what brings back balance to the force, despite Vader being redeemed. If Vader's alignment was directly what causes the change in the force, then the Emperor being defeated would not be needed.

Luke Skywalker, Book of the Sith wrote:"My father broke this cycle with his final action - atonement. By destroying Palpatine, he restored balance to the Force."

This is illustrated by the force again falling into darkness when Palpatine comes back in Dark Empire. Anakin's spirit is still aligned with the Light, yet Palpatine holds total sway.

Luke Skywalker, Dark Empire wrote:“You have filled the galaxy with your darkness… but I have seen what my father could not see.”

Vader may be able to tap into 10,000 years of Darkness, but what does that mean? I can tap into the city's water supply and not use it in its entirety. The force constantly growing isn't even a consistent beat of Star Wars, with many sources alluding to waxing and waning of darkness in the Living Force.

Darth Plagueis, Plagueis wrote:If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?

The cosmic force is timeless and omnipresent, so by necessity can't grow.

Dark Empire Audiodrama wrote:Leia: Where am I?
Bodo: Everywhere and nowhere. You are with the Force.
Leia: Bodo Baas, am I... inside the holocron?
Bodo: No, the holocron is a device. It helps us to reach each other. It is the force which truly brings us together.
Leia: And you... Are you real? I mean, didn't you die a long time ago?
Bodo: Past history and present action are one. The force surrounds all time, all doing. Bodo Baas is with the force, that is certain.

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:The only certain truth is that the Force exists and is omnipresent, and that’s enough for most who study its various influences.

The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force wrote:You already know of the Force as omnipresent, simultaneously existing as both a personal energy and as an imposing power through its Living and Unifying aspects.

The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force wrote:The Force is timeless, but we Jedi have not always been present to interpret its teachings.

The Clone Wars wrote:Yoda: See the future, you can?
Qui-Gon Jinn: I exist where there is no future or past.

So this line of reasoning goes nowhere.

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Ancient Power wrote:Darth Vader after slaughtering the separatists had achieved the power necessary to be the 'all-powerful', 'super-Sith' as put by George Lucas:

Firstly, it is a bit odd to quote two separate interviews together as the same interview (one is 2010, one is 2005). Regardless, the quotes don't say what you want them to say, the first quote says he makes a pact to become all-powerful. Not that he made a pact and became all powerful. This is further distinguished by stipulating that Anakin needs to defeat Kenobi to further his path of power.

George Lucas, Making of Revenge of the Sith wrote: “You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

Being "all-powerful" in these quotes just means that Anakin is free to be selfish, and has nothing to do with strength.



As for the Super-Sith comment, Plagueis can be considered a "Super-Sith" due to his impossible abilities. Since we know those powers are fake, that is most likely the true intent. Anakin thinking he has the impossible power does nothing but show his hubris and lack of understanding.

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Ancient Power wrote:Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor who is beyond the 'all-powerful' 'super-Sith' Darth Vader had been on Mustafar.

Seems to me that Vader concedes that he cannot harness the true power of the Darkside. When Luke says they could turn against the Emperor, Vader says Luke doesn't know the power of the dark side, and that he must obey his master. Light Side Luke and Darth Vader cannot take the Emperor. The meta is if Luke is not using the dark side, then they can't defeat the Emperor.



Only in the end does Luke realize that his feeble skills are no match for the power of the Dark Side. Y'know, despite beating Vader.



If Vader let Luke attempt to strike down Palpatine, the Emperor would've lift his hand and that would be the end of it.

George Lucas, The Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:Vader also knows that the Emperor is toying with Luke. He has been told by the Emperor, ‘When he starts to strike me, you’re going to have to take him out.’ If Vader doesn’t block Luke’s lazer sword, the Emperor could just raise his hand and that would be the end of it. Then Vader would be in trouble: "Lord Vader, what happened to you? Did you not get your cue?"

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Ancient Power wrote:As of Return of the Jedi, the Emperor's power is nearing 'tier 10' which is beyond any power in the universe

And Vader is a 4, and thus so would Luke, again meaning that they would be nowhere near ROTJ Palpatine.

Ancient Power wrote:In the context of the timetable of the above quote, Luke Skywalker is or at the very least soon will be powerful enough to conquer Darth Vader and the Emperor if he defeats his father:

Nowhere does it say Luke must reach that level of power to stop the Emperor, merely that Luke must stop him before that happens. Luke stops him, not through power, but through sticking to the Jedi ideals and showing to Vader that Palpatine is not omnipotent. What Yoda says is true, only a fully trained Jedi Knight can conquer Vader and his Emperor, and those "selfless" ideals are exactly what win the day. That is the story of Star Wars. Yoda makes it clear that his faith in Luke is not about power, as he warns Luke to not underestimate the Emperor's powers, unless he wishes to meet his Father's fate.

Ancient Power wrote:Whilst Luke is underestimating the Emperor here. It's important to note that, conversely, if Luke joins the dark side it's the end for the Force per Yoda

Ah, I am glad you agree that Luke thinking he could take on the Emperor is irrelevant. However, Luke joining the dark side is not necessarily the cause for the end of the Force. Rather, in the comic, Yoda is lamenting about his old age and how the time of the Jedi has passed. A huge burden is now on Luke Skywalker, since if he falls to the dark side there will be no more champions of the Light Side to keep on fighting. However, if they remain faithful to the Light, the Empire will fall. If there are no longer champions of the Light Side, then of course Palpatine will win and destroy the force. Luke is not the one doing the destroying here.

Ancient Power wrote:Darth Vader then realizes that the Emperor's omniscience and invincibility relative to himself and Luke is fraudulent when the Emperor fails to foresee Luke's defiance

Yep, Luke's selflessness proves to Vader that Palpatine is not omnipotent, which allows him to harness "super energies" that allow him to survive just long enough to defeat the Emperor. Previously, the Emperor was toying with Luke and was in no threat at all, along with superior powers to Luke per the script and George.

The Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:Vader also knows that the Emperor is toying with Luke. He has been told by the Emperor, ‘When
he starts to strike me, you’re going to have to take him out.’ If Vader doesn’t block Luke’s lazer sword,
the Emperor could just raise his hand and that would be the end of it. Then Vader would be in trouble:
‘Lord Vader, what happened to you? Did you not get your cue?’ So Vader knows what the Emperor is
doing to the kid—instead of Vader turning Luke to the dark side, maybe the Emperor can. Vader
doesn’t care who does it [because then father and son can unite].
“But Vader doesn’t quite understand the Emperor’s plot. The whole plot of the Emperor is to get
Luke to turn to the dark side and become his apprentice, by killing Vader. Vader doesn’t quite
understand that he’s on the chopping block, until he gets into that fight. He thinks that his job is to kill
the kid, but of course he can’t really kill the kid, and the Emperor knows that he can’t really kill the kid.
The Emperor is playing the two against each other to see which one wins. It’s not until Luke cuts off his
father’s hand that it occurs to Vader what’s going to happen here: He realizes, Wait a minute, I’ve been set
up. Then he also realizes that his son is what Vader was at one point, when Luke’s choice was his choice.
His son refuses to kill him—and that is such a revelation to Vader—it reminds him of what he once was.

The Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:So Vader is not powerful enough to kill the Emperor, but he does so in a very unexpected way. He
does it not out of thinking or fear. He does it out of the super energy of wanting to protect his son, out of
compassion. Vader finally has compassion for his son and realizes that his life has been a sham.

Ancient Power wrote:Now whilst Darth Vader's love for his son is what allows him to actually kill the Emperor, it is telling that an Emperor who is about to achieve a power beyond any in the universe and is already far above an all-powerful 'super Sith' Mustafar Vader is still 'vulnerable' to the duo.

It is not telling at all, considering that despite Vader being amped by super energy, both Luke and Vader were rendered completely unable to move (hell, Vader died) by Palpatine's lightning.





Luke was also powerless to stop the Emperor, and as his father's equal, so too would Vader.

Return of the Jedi Script wrote:Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling . . . Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain.

Secrets of the Sith wrote:The second father-son duel took place on Emperor Palpatine’s second Death Star. Now more able to control the Force, Luke Skywalker was finally able to defeat his powerful father. But he was no match for the evil Emperor.

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:Still lying against the bridge railing beside the elevator shaft, Vader watched the Emperor extend his gnarled fingers and unleash blinding bolts of blue lightning from his fingertips. The lightning struck Luke, who tried to deflect the crackling bands of energy, but was so overwhelmed that his body crumpled to the floor.

The Official Fact Files 120 wrote:Infuriated by Luke’s resilience against the dark side, the Emperor unleashed a deadly torrent of dark side lightning. Skywalker was powerless to resist the onslaught, and his life was fast draining away.

--

Ancient Power wrote:Yoda and Ben can't do this, only Luke can:

Interesting how you cut out the part later in the interview, which says Ben could have done it if not for his old age. Yoda, on the other hand, was a guru during ROTJ's creation, not a fighter.




Later on, when we find out that Yoda was a warrior, it is revealed that Luke was weaker than Yoda was in the prequels. This is made obvious by how Yoda can handle force lightning, while Luke could not.



An explanation, despite ROTS enlightenment claims, is even given to us by Pablo Hidalgo and other sources for why Yoda doesn't use these powers in the OT. The death of so many Jedi left his spirit broken (which, in a contest of wills ensures he will almost always lose).

Pablo Hidalgo, Head-to-Head wrote:As Yoda approaches 900 years old, he is slowed down not by age but by a spirit broken after the destruction of the Jedi Order.

Episode III Visual Dictionary wrote:In his contest with Sidious, Yoda realises he is overmatched and deserts the fight, perhaps because his spirit has been broken by so many Jedi deaths.

The Last One Standing wrote:Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it.

As you said before, Qui-Gon training Yoda has been around for a long time.

Revenge of the Sith Jr. Novel wrote:With nothing to do but wait, Yoda automatically found a quiet room and sat down to meditate. The being who had been trying to contact him surely could not reach through the newly strengthened fog of the dark side, but the habit had become strong. And to his surprise, this time the contact succeeded. Qui-Gon Jinn! No wonder the presence had felt familiar. Still much to learn, there is.

Yet still, Yoda gets quotes saying he hasn't moved beyond the Death of the Jedi. Nothing in TCW points to any change in this narrative. Even if it did, mind you, Qui-Gon says that Yoda must abandon all physical self to undergo the training, which would give him a new weakness.

--


Yoda is, in fact, still an old man in the PT. You're correct. However, that isn't what is holding him back. Nothing in these quotes say Yoda was always "infirm."

--

Ancient Power wrote:Whilst the obvious limitations on his body and thus combat make it hard for him to perform against the fully-fledged Jedi and Sith he was once supreme over in a duel, it's his ability to wield his cosmic Force power with his mind that you truly have to overcome

I'm glad you recognize that Vader is no longer a supreme combatant, but I feel like you are also ignoring just how pathetic his mind is as well. As George Lucas puts it, Vader is a pathetic old man hobbled by his infirmities.

George Lucas, A New Hope Alternative Commentary with Archival Interviews from Cast and Crew wrote:”Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has, so I wanted that relationship of Vader kind of being reduced to, I mean an assistant is too low a word, but he’s a henchmen, which is the impression you had when you saw the first movie by itself, but if you reflect on it a little bit you realize it’s actually not the way it is, the fact that he basically takes orders from Tarkin, who isn’t an equal to him at all, you know he’s way below him, really, but he doesn’t have much choice because he’s hobbled by his infirmities and the New Order, which he’s become a part of.”

--

Ancient Power wrote:Simply put, Darth Vader's darkness is beyond the control of the Force Priestesses, Yoda and Ben. In terms of his stature in the cosmic Force, he is the darkness and the axis upon which the balance of the Force operates. Only Luke Skywalker is capable of conquering Vader and the Emperor, and restoring the Force before it is too late for anything in the Force and the universe to work.

The Force Priestesses cannot control absolute darkness. I have no idea where this claim that Vader is beyond the Priestesses is coming from, when Vader still has good in him.

In short, nothing in your entire post signifies anything.

THE RETURN

"I have done something that no other Sith could achieve: I've broken my chains. No one can stop me. Not the Republic. Not the Empire. Not you."
- Darth Malgus, The Dark Descent

Scaling the Unchained


According to George Lucas, we had never seen true Jedi fighting before The Phantom Menace, specifically referencing how often they were fighting in the past for a reason for why everything is more skilled, aggressive, and quick compared to the Original Trilogy.

George Lucas, Birth of the Lightsaber Featurette wrote:Every episode from IV, V, and VI, I kept improving the sword fighting because the assumption was Luke was getting to be a better fighter, he was learning more, but at the same time he wasn't being trained as an original Jedi would have been trained... Then when we moved into the prequel, where the Jedi were in full flower, fighting as they were in the past - well trained Jedi - we had to make the swordfights much much faster, much more sophisticated, and much more aggressive in the ways they were fought.

Pablo reiterates that "'true Jedi fighting" means that the Jedi are fighting with more strength and power than we saw in the original trilogy.



Knights of the Old Republic is very similar to this, with the constant epic battles between Jedi and Sith also giving them claim to be above the Original Trilogy.









Revan is the absolute epitome of the KOTOR Jedi, and learned everything he could from the Order and beyond.

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters: that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever.

Star Wars the Old Republic - Revan wrote:Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.

Juhani, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:You must realize that Revan was as great as a Jedi could be.

Dorak, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:Revan's tale shows us how even the greatest of Jedi can fall to the dark side.

Carth Onasi, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:Our heroes had become brutal, conquering Sith, and we were all but helpless before them. Think about it, if you can't even trust the best of the Jedi, who can you trust?

Revan's power was so great that he was a blinding nexus of force energy, and could use the force "Skywalker-style" with specific references to Anakin Skywalker.

Ajunta Pall, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"You - the Force is with you. So strong, so bright."

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul.

Darth Revan is even said to be among the three most powerful Sith Lords of all time in 2008.

Wizards of the Coast: Sith Showdown wrote:The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?

Which is not only a supremacy statement to Darth Vader, but to Count Dooku, who makes Luke (Vader's equal) seem "not that powerful."



This sentiment is confirmed again by the Dark Side Source Book and Wizards of the Coast with Malak receiving stats much beyond Darth Vader, which were overseen by Bill Slavicsek and Leland Chee (two grand overseers of continuity). The Darth Malak article specifically references the Dark Side Source Book, and therefore built off its foundations. This is in spite of stats potraying Darth Vader much beyond his Georgian Intent. Darth Vader at his best potrayal is still below Revan.





Saga Edition making similar claims, with Darth Revan being better than Darth Vader across every axis.







A much stronger version of Revan then faces Novel Vitiate alongside Lord Scourge and Meetra Surrik. Revan believes that alone he doesn't stand a chance, but with the aid of his allies they may stand a chance. However, during the fight Lord Scourge discovers that this was a battle they were destined to lose, favoring a New Champion of the Force over Revan.

Revan, Star Wars the Old Republic: Revan wrote:In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even
fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful
now, but was he a match for the Emperor?
Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and
even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

Star Wars the Old Republic: Revan wrote:The Force washed over him in a wave, and a million possible futures flickered
through his mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others
he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both
Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life
and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.
He had to choose, but there was no way to know which was the most likely
outcome, or what actions of his would lead to which results. Revan had said
visions could guide the Jedi, but for Scourge they brought nothing but confusion.
The moment passed and the universe began to move again, though everything
seemed to be happening in slow motion. Revan and Meetra stepped forward,
ready to initiate the final confrontation. Scourge knew he had to act now; he had
to make his choice.
In a sudden moment of clarity he saw the Emperor lying defeated at the feet of
a powerful Jedi ... but that Jedi was neither Revan nor Meetra. And the Sith
Lord knew what he had to do.

300 years later, the Champion arrived in the form of the Hero of Tython, a far more experienced and powerful Lord Scourge believes that he is completely incapable of aiding in the fight against Act 3 Vitiate. Vitiate has become so powerful that Scourge is no longer an asset in battle, unlike he was with Revan. The Hero of Tython battles through Dromund Kaas, soon proving that this version of the Emperor truly was no match for him.







Revan, upon his freedom in SWTOR's Act 2, shares to the Jedi Council everything he knows about Vitiate. In response, the Jedi creates a strike team composed of the strongest Jedi of the era.







Vitiate proves once again that he is above all concepts of himself, giving perhaps the most dominating display in all of Star Wars. Forcing the Jedi (including the Hero of Tython) to acknowledge his massive superiority.

SWTOR Codex - The Fall of Tol Braga wrote:A one-time respected member of the Jedi Council and its most
fervent advocate for peace, Master Tol Braga now willingly serves
the Sith Emperor. His confrontation with that foe showed him the
nature of true evil and revealed a powerful force he had grossly
underestimated. Master Braga’s failure to redeem the Emperor broke
his spirit. With his pride and faith shattered, he succumbed to
nihilistic despair.

However, when the Hero of Tython faces Vitiate again, he is confident that he can slay the Emperor regardless of if he is allowed to recover or not.



Despite the Hero of Tython being so much better than Revan, he finds a peer in the deadliest Sith Warrior in the Empire composed of millions: Darth Malgus.



Per the Hero of Tython himself, Darth Malgus was a perfect duelist, who he only managed to defeat through exploiting his Sith rage via the help of his teammates.

The Hero of Tython | False Emperor Flashpoint wrote:“Malgus’s lightsaber form was flawless, but he let anger and desperation cloud his fighting. He faltered, and I followed through. We never would have defeated Malgus by working alone.”

Exploiting Rage is a tactic that Luke notes is viable about most Sith Lords, given how he has fought three of them, it is probable to say Vader is among those he is considering with such a general claim. The ROTJ novelization depicting Vader being overwhelmed with rage in much the same way.





After being dealt a fatal blow, Malgus still manages to survive the space station's fleet destroying self-destruction, and is reconstructed to be stronger and more durable than ever before.

Jedi Under Siege wrote:Recovered from the wreckage of his coup attempt and revived with a dizzying array of exotic and cutting-edge technologies, Darth Malgus is as powerful and ruthless as ever. His face bears even more scars, his body even more cybernetics; his armor has been reconstructed and enhanced to increase his strength and endurance still further. But through all of this change, Malgus the man has retained the same unyielding determination in pursuit of his sole, brutal goal: the total annihilation of the Jedi, the destruction of the corrupt Republic they serve, and the evolution of the Empire into a society worthy of the power of the Sith.

In Onslaught, Malgus faces the Hero of Tython again after several years, and believes he can kill the Hero easily.





Only to discover that the Outlander was much beyond his previous conceptions.



Darth Malgus later frees himself from the mind control of the Sith Empire, and undergoes a spiritual transformation. He claims that he has fulfilled the core axiom of the Sith code: breaking his chains. He believes he is utterly unstoppable now.



When he encounters the Outlander yet again, he again believes the Outlander is no match.





So in the end we get:

LOTS Malgus > Malgus' conception of the HoT > Onslaught Malgus > False Emperor Malgus >~ Act 3 HoT > Act 3 HoT’s conception of Act 2 Vitiate >>> Act 2 Jedi Strike Team > Act 2 Jedi Council’s/HoT’s perception of Vitiate ~ Act 2 Revan’s conception of Vitiate > Novel Revan’s conception of Vitiate > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >> Darth Vader

OR

LOTS Malgus > Malgus' conception of the HoT > Onslaught Malgus > False Emperor Malgus >~ Act 3 HoT >> Act 3 Vitiate >> Novel Vitiate >/~ Novel Revan + Novel Scourge + Meetra Surik > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >> Darth Vader


Rage and the Sustain

Darth Malgus is the foremost user of harnessing rage to fuel his body, he is so amazing at this that Malgus acquired unrivaled battlefield feats and becomes Palpatine's inspiration for creating force storms.



Unlike Vader, Malgus was able to sustain himself through his rage, despite his injuries.



Star Wars Galaxies of Heroes describes his rage as having a direct correlation to his constitution, giving him considerably more health the angrier he gets.



Upon stacking his rage enough in Legacy of the Sith, he is able to harness the power exactly as Palpatine has foreseen: force storms are created that deal devastating damage against the players.




His rage and durability is so immense, that he can take a fatal injury and still survive a fleet destroying explosion.



He is then reconstructed more durable than ever, resulting in him being more durable than Arcann in the eyes of Charles Boyd, the then story director of SWTOR.

Jedi Under Siege wrote:Recovered from the wreckage of his coup attempt and revived with a dizzying array of exotic and cutting-edge technologies, Darth Malgus is as powerful and ruthless as ever. His face bears even more scars, his body even more cybernetics; his armor has been reconstructed and enhanced to increase his strength and endurance still further. But through all of this change, Malgus the man has retained the same unyielding determination in pursuit of his sole, brutal goal: the total annihilation of the Jedi, the destruction of the corrupt Republic they serve, and the evolution of the Empire into a society worthy of the power of the Sith.

Arcann is not only capable of enduring various lightsaber strikes made from a weapon specifically designed to kill him, but endure Valkorion's lightning for around a minute as channeled through the Hero of Tython and survive to tell the tale.




Meanwhile, Vader cannot endure a few seconds of unfocused lightning from a similar figure to Valkorion -- Palpatine -- despite being amplified by the super energies of love.

"The Idea is when Darth Vader comes on, in Episode 4, it suddenly has this huge, powerful effect because you know right from the get-go that Vader is Princess Leia's father. You know that when you cut down to Luke, you know that's his son, and you realize that Darth Vader is this pathetic character. He's not this big, all-powerful monster. He's actually this pathetic man who made some wrong choices, who found himself trapped in the world of evil."
- George Lucas

Yes. This is correct. I know it's just your header and not part of your actual argument, but this quite happily leads into other things. Lucas clarifies here that:

”Not unless you see all the films out together you begin to realize that the real story obviously is about Darth Vader, and in this particular movie he’s a rather pathetic character, he’s a shadow of his former self, he’s getting pushed around by bureaucrats. You know it’s not altogether what people thought Darth Vader originally was, which was this all powerful king of the universe.”
-George Lucas, A New Hope Commentary (2004)

But that's not all Lucas says:

”I like this shot in particular, it’s a big long lens shot that Kersh did, stacks everything up and it makes Vader look huge and Luke look very small and weak and Vader very powerful, and this is where Vader reveals himself in terms of what his ambitions are, which is to have him join him to help overthrow the Emperor.”
-George Lucas, The Empire Strikes Back Commentary

He goes from being bullied around on the Death Star and looking pathetic to looking very powerful on Bespin against Luke.

But that's not the only thing, Fightsaber is a source born out of conversations with George Lucas and here it's stated that:

1; He is no longer being bullied around, he has cemented his power over the entire Imperial military by ESB:

2; He's fully coming into his own as a dark sider by ESB:

3; He's now far more formidable on Bespin than he was on the Death Star:

4; He doesn't have the advanced polish that comes from study with lifelong masters like Mace Windu or Yoda via Lucas but he's nonetheless able to wield his Form V with 'utter confidence' and 'masterfully' against Luke:

Seems there is a lot to sift through

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Ancient Power wrote:- As the Chosen One, Darth Vader is the embodiment of the Force.

Darth Vader is still the chosen one; however, his powers are greatly diminished from what they once were.

WIZARDS - ICONS OF EPISODE VI wrote:The Emperor saw in Luke Skywalker a better servant than his father. Luke was young and powerful, while Darth Vader had become a shadow of the man he once was. Palpatine played the two Skywalkers against each other, and in the end, Luke defeated his father.

STAR WARS OFFICIAL FIGURINE COLLECTION #12 wrote:Strikingly, in the story of Anakin Skywalker, the hero must fall from grace -- then later redeem himself -- in order to fulfil the prophecy. Thus, Darth Vader becomes a 'fallen angel' figure. From being the most powerful Jedi, a 'fearless hero ' of the Republic, Anakin falls to the lowest possible point because of his desire for power and security.

Hayden Blackman relaying George Lucas wrote:As I kid, I had always imagined that whatever transformed Anakin into Vader had actually made him more powerful... But when we were working on The Force Unleashed at LucasArts, George Lucas told us that after Revenge of the Sith the Emperor views Vader as "broken" and believes that Anakin's physical transformation into Vader has left him weaker and less useful. The idea that Vader is somehow less powerful than Anakin really depressed me

- George Lucas, A New Hope Alternative Commentary with Archival Interviews from Cast and Crew wrote:Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably.

Hayden Blackman relaying George Lucas wrote:This notion was driven in part from conversations with George Lucas. He explained that after Anakin's devastating defeat in Episode III, the Emperor views Darth Vader as broken, his once formidable connection to the Force weakened by the fact that his body is largely cybernetic and inorganic. Thus, it made sense to us that the Emperor would find and train a replacement.

- George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary wrote:Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

Empire At War Forces of Corruption Prime Guide wrote:Obi-Wan trained Anakin in the ways of the Force, but Skywalker was impatient with the Jedi’s painstaking methods. Skywalker let himself be embraced by the rapturous power of the dark side into the Sith Lord Darth Vader. Kenobi tried to draw him back to the light side, but they engaged in a duel on Mustafar that ultimately ended with Skywalker’s body being consumed by flame. The shell of a man who emerged was sustained by specially built armor and a breathing apparatus.

Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader wrote:Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

George Lucas, Cult of Darth Vader wrote:And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Uh, thanks? But that was never something I contested. What exactly were you debunking there?

Despite Darth Vader being "inexorably linked to the fate of the galaxy" his shift to redemption is not why the galaxy is changed for the better, but through his act of defeating the Sith.

Yes, it's almost like Darth Sidious had already caused the shroud of the dark side and was a main cause of its rise galaxy-wide. Which is something that already existed prior to Vader falling. But if you're about to argue Vader can't cause shifts in the shroud or the balance, you're absolutely wrong:

“Joke some other time,” Obi-Wan muttered. “It’s the dark side—the shadow on the Force. Our instincts still can’t be trusted. Don’t you feel it?”

The dark side was the last thing Anakin wanted to think about right now.
-Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

```This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker, for now:

The Supreme Chancellor returns your look with a hint of smile and a sliver of an approving nod, and for you, this tiny, trivial, comradely victory sparks a warmth and ease that relaxes the dragon-grip of dread on your heart.

Forget that you are captured; you and Obi-Wan have been captured before. Forget the deteriorating ship, forget the Jedi-killing droids; you’ve faced worse. Forget General Grievous. What is he compared with Dooku? He can’t even use the Force.

So now, here, for you, the situation comes down to this: you are walking between the two best friends you have ever had, with your precious droid friend faithfully whirring after your heels—

On your way to win the Clone Wars.

What you have done—what happened in the General’s Quarters and, more important, why it happened—is all burning away in Coruscant’s atmosphere along with Dooku’s decapitated corpse. Already it seems as if it happened to somebody else, as if you were somebody else when you did it, and it seems as if that man—the dragon-haunted man with a furnace for a heart and a mind as cold as the surface of that dead star—had really only been an image reflected in Dooku’s open staring eyes.

And by the time what’s left of the conning spire crashes into the kilometers-thick crust of city that is the surface of Coruscant, those dead eyes will have burned away, and the dragon will burn with them.

And you, for the first time in your life, will truly be free.

This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

For now.
-Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

The next page:

This is Obi-Wan Kenobi in the light:

As he is prodded onto the bridge along with Anakin and Chancellor Palpatine, he has no need to look around to see the banks of control consoles tended by terrified Neimoidians. He doesn’t have to turn his head to count the droidekas and super battle droids, or to gauge the positions of the brutal droid bodyguards. He doesn’t bother to raise his eyes to meet the cold yellow stare fixed on him through a skull-mask of armorplast.

He doesn’t even need to reach into the Force.

He has already let the Force reach into him.

The Force flows over him and around him as though he has stepped into a crystal-pure waterfall lost in the green coils of a forgotten rain forest; when he opens himself to that sparkling stream it flows into him and through him and out again without the slightest interference from his conscious will. The part of him that calls itself Obi-Wan Kenobi is no more than a ripple, an eddy in the pool into which he endlessly pours.
-Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

Somehow, mysteriously, the cloud that has darkened the Force for near to a decade and a half has lightened around him now, and he finds within himself the limpid clarity he recalls from his schooldays at the Jedi Temple, when the Force was pure, and clean, and perfect. It is as though the darkness has withdrawn, has coiled back upon itself, to allow him this moment of clarity, to return to him the full power of the light, if only for the moment; he does not know why, but he is incapable of even wondering. In the Force, he is beyond questions.
-Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

Anakin Skywalker lifts the shroud of the dark side of the Force to such a degree that Obi-Wan Kenobi feels the Force as it was in his school days. On a whim.
--

Ancient Power wrote:As the Chosen One, Darth Vader's internal balance effects the Force and the universe.

This meta significance does absolutely nothing for Vader as a combatant,

No, my young friend, it does everything. Anakin on a whim is able to cause the darkness to retreat and recoil, a darkness so strong that the Jedi Order collectively can only hope to defeat via Qui-Gon Jinn preparing Yoda to eventually train Luke Skywalker:



Is this because Anakin has more power than the Jedi Order itself or is it because he's the Chosen One and can affect the Force on such a scale due to his very nature? Which is exactly what I've been saying. We'll get into why that's an important distinction later though.

And he is still very capable of losing: Starkiller defeats him twice, Luke defeats him, he is about to die to the Jedi Strike Team before the 501st saves him.

Quite thankfully however, he is growing into his full might all the time.

The Princess fought bravely, but she was no match for Vader. She used the last of her strength to throw the lightsaber to Skywalker, just as he emerged from under the rubble. Facing the Sith Lord, Skywalker said, “Ben Kenobi is with me, Vader, and the Force is with me too.”
The duel was furious, and carried Vader and Skywalker through the temple to a chamber where there was a dark circular opening in the floor, the mouth of a deep pit. As the battle wore on, Vader found himself breathing hard through his respirator. But then, thanks to his proximity to the Force-enhancing Kaiburr Crystal, he felt a sudden surge of the power of the dark side, allowing him to project lightning from his fingertips for the first time in his life. He hurled Force-energized lightning at Skywalker, but his young opponent deflected the blast.

“Not … possible!” Vader muttered, feeling his energy drain. “Such power … in a child. Not possible!”

As Skywalker threw himself at the towering black figure, Vader raised his lightsaber to defend himself. But he wasn’t fast enough. Skywalker’s blade cut through the Sith Lord’s prosthetic right arm, and it fell to the floor, still clutching the red-bladed lightsaber.
-The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader

This is the concept Luke Skywalker has of Darth Vader as of their fight on Mimban. This is what Luke Skywalker projects onto the dark side spirit in the Dagobah Cave, and destroys:









Yet when Luke Skywalker faces Darth Vader on Bespin:








An Kaiburr-crystal amplified Darth Vader goes from being dismantled entirely by a Luke Skywalker hindered by the Dagobah Cave's dark side nexus, to far more powerful on Bespin, where Luke "could not be more wrong" about how ready he is to face him, and is only beginning to realise how powerful Darth Vader is when he actually engages him.

The Emperor kills him.

Which would be damning if Darth Malgus was anywhere near Emperor Palpatine, and despite your attempts later down the line to prove he can, I'll dismantle any delusions you have that he can.

When Pablo is asked about why Darth Vader loses to Luke, he comments it is because Vader is less skilled and powerful than the young Jedi of the prequels. If Luke Skywalker was the only person capable of defeating him through some cosmic significance then this would've been the perfect time to mention that as well.

The "young Jedi of the prequels" being Anakin Skywalker, yes. Very clear if you bother to read the actual quote. Thankfully, Anakin's power is all we'll be talking about and it does you no favors whatsoever. But I know you repost this same thing later so I'll deal with it there.

Ancient Power wrote:Darth Vader destroys the balance of the Force that was already im-balanced.

Of the quotes you provided, two refer to his actions: destroying the Jedi, and slaying the Emperor.




And the other is his symbol, as the menacing Darth Vader, casts the galaxy in darkness. It's not some cosmic power.

Both of those things are inherently tied into my argument but aren't the main points. I don't know what the hell you thought you were proving by pointing this out. This is literally just attempting to bifurcate two parts of a whole. The sources I posted plainly recognise both is true. Anakin's actions do indeed have both external and internal consequences for the Force in a broad sense.

Ancient Power wrote:Darth Vader alongside the Emperor is at the center of this total darkness and commands it in union.

Not sure what you're trying to say in this section. The Emperor owns a massively larger portion of the galactic darkness than Vader does. It is his power that consumes the galaxy in the dark side. Palpatine is the threat to destroy the force, not Vader. The destruction of the force will be his victory, not Vader's. The Emperor is the one who can wield “the true nature of the force,” not Vader.

Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:Only Palpatine has been able to spread his darkness completely and totally over an entire galaxy.

The death of the Emperor also is ultimately what brings back balance to the force, despite Vader being redeemed. If Vader's alignment was directly what causes the change in the force, then the Emperor being defeated would not be needed.

Luke Skywalker, Book of the Sith wrote:"My father broke this cycle with his final action - atonement. By destroying Palpatine, he restored balance to the Force."

Everything here is wrong.

As I've already provided in the quotes. Darth Vader co-owns the dark side of the Force with the Emperor, he's the 'epitome', he and the Emperor maintain its supremacy over the galaxy through order, etc. You nitpicking what slice of the pie he has is irrelevant. They are both 'supported by' the 'ultimate power'.

This is illustrated by the force again falling into darkness when Palpatine comes back in Dark Empire. Anakin's spirit is still aligned with the Light, yet Palpatine holds total sway.

Luke Skywalker, Dark Empire wrote:“You have filled the galaxy with your darkness… but I have seen what my father could not see.”

What in the actual fuck was this? So Anakin Skywalker's spirit, which is in the Netherworld of the Force, doesn't prevent the galactic darkness in the living Force. And?

Vader may be able to tap into 10,000 years of Darkness, but what does that mean? I can tap into the city's water supply and not use it in its entirety. The force constantly growing isn't even a consistent beat of Star Wars, with many sources alluding to waxing and waning of darkness in the Living Force.

Darth Plagueis, Plagueis wrote:If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?

The cosmic force is timeless and omnipresent, so by necessity can't grow.

Dark Empire Audiodrama wrote:Leia: Where am I?
Bodo: Everywhere and nowhere. You are with the Force.
Leia: Bodo Baas, am I... inside the holocron?
Bodo: No, the holocron is a device. It helps us to reach each other. It is the force which truly brings us together.
Leia: And you... Are you real? I mean, didn't you die a long time ago?
Bodo: Past history and present action are one. The force surrounds all time, all doing. Bodo Baas is with the force, that is certain.

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:The only certain truth is that the Force exists and is omnipresent, and that’s enough for most who study its various influences.

The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force wrote:You already know of the Force as omnipresent, simultaneously existing as both a personal energy and as an imposing power through its Living and Unifying aspects.

The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force wrote:The Force is timeless, but we Jedi have not always been present to interpret its teachings.

The Clone Wars wrote:Yoda: See the future, you can?
Qui-Gon Jinn: I exist where there is no future or past.

So this line of reasoning goes nowhere.

So your great argument is to prove that the cosmic Force is timeless and omnipresent, is so strong it literally can't get any greater. But you also just said to me that the darkness, that has consumed said cosmic Force, and which Vader and the Emperor will end without Luke's victory... is down to how big their slices of this seemingly infinite pie is?

Ancient Power wrote:Darth Vader after slaughtering the separatists had achieved the power necessary to be the 'all-powerful', 'super-Sith' as put by George Lucas:

Firstly, it is a bit odd to quote two separate interviews together as the same interview (one is 2010, one is 2005). Regardless, the quotes don't say what you want them to say, the first quote says he makes a pact to become all-powerful. Not that he made a pact and became all powerful. This is further distinguished by stipulating that Anakin needs to defeat Kenobi to further his path of power.

George Lucas, Making of Revenge of the Sith wrote: “You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

Being "all-powerful" in these quotes just means that Anakin is free to be selfish, and has nothing to do with strength.



As for the Super-Sith comment, Plagueis can be considered a "Super-Sith" due to his impossible abilities. Since we know those powers are fake, that is most likely the true intent. Anakin thinking he has the impossible power does nothing but show his hubris and lack of understanding.

Thanks Janix. This entire argument you quoted hinges on what Darth Vader believes is the case. The case he believes is that the Emperor is this omniscient pinnacle of all the dark side power he has experienced before. Nothing you just said proves anything I claimed wrong.

Ancient Power wrote:Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor who is beyond the 'all-powerful' 'super-Sith' Darth Vader had been on Mustafar.

Seems to me that Vader concedes that he cannot harness the true power of the Darkside. When Luke says they could turn against the Emperor, Vader says Luke doesn't know the power of the dark side, and that he must obey his master.  Light Side Luke and Darth Vader cannot take the Emperor. The meta is if Luke is not using the dark side, then they can't defeat the Emperor.

Excellent, Vader also thinks right infront of the Emperor that he believes Luke could kill him. He can't allow him to do so yet because Luke would give him the finger and go home:

Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first - training by both Vader and Palpatine - before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy.

Only in the end does Luke realize that his feeble skills are no match for the power of the Dark Side. Y'know, despite beating Vader.

He also specifically thinks as he is being killed by the Emperor that his father can save him from the Emperor, hence pleading for his help. So your insight is very poorly judged there. Luke has just beaten Vader, is taking the Emperor's lethal Force lightning, and still believes Vader can stop him. This isn't a great look for your argument.

If Vader let Luke attempt to strike down Palpatine, the Emperor would've lift his hand and that would be the end of it.

George Lucas, The Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:Vader also knows that the Emperor is toying with Luke. He has been told by the Emperor, ‘When he starts to strike me, you’re going to have to take him out.’ If Vader doesn’t block Luke’s lazer sword, the Emperor could just raise his hand and that would be the end of it. Then Vader would be in trouble: "Lord Vader, what happened to you? Did you not get your cue?"

1.Yes, Luke cannot defeat the Emperor on his own head-to-head. Thankfully, that wasn't my argument, was it Janix? Luke believes he can take down the Emperor, in reality he can't but by every metric it's not a matter of if he can but when he can. Vader believes he can, Luke himself believes he can, Yoda believes he could, Ben Kenobi believes he could.

The Emperor fears it could happen realistically in an immediate timeframe when he feels Luke is a 'great disturbance' once he begins training on Dagobah with Yoda. As early as Empire Strikes Back:




2.This is what Vader currently knows, Vader also changes his mind about the Emperor's invincibility later on. Per both the quote I provided and the rest of the quote you just posted further down.

Ancient Power wrote:As of Return of the Jedi, the Emperor's power is nearing 'tier 10' which is beyond any power in the universe

And Vader is a 4, and thus so would Luke, again meaning that they would be nowhere near ROTJ Palpatine.

Wrong. Vader was a 4 against Ben on the Death Star:

George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.
- The Annotated Screenplays

As I've proven via multiple avenues, there's arguably as much as a one shot gap compared to where he is by the Empire Strikes Back. Nevermind Return of the Jedi. He also most certainly isn't less than half his power given that George Lucas much more recently states:

Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan.

Ancient Power wrote:In the context of the timetable of the above quote, Luke Skywalker is or at the very least soon will be powerful enough to conquer Darth Vader and the Emperor if he defeats his father:

Nowhere does it say Luke must reach that level of power to stop the Emperor, merely that Luke must stop him before that happens. Luke stops him, not through power, but through sticking to the Jedi ideals and showing to Vader that Palpatine is not omnipotent. What Yoda says is true, only a fully trained Jedi Knight can conquer Vader and his Emperor, and those "selfless" ideals are exactly what win the day. That is the story of Star Wars. Yoda makes it clear that his faith in Luke is not about power, as he warns Luke to not underestimate the Emperor's powers, unless he wishes to meet his Father's fate.

"Only a fully-trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor."

Is pretty explicit wording. When Yoda says this, the entire context is that Luke needs to stay here and complete his training to 'conquer' the Sith. Come Return of the Jedi it's suddenly:

"No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need."

Now naturally, Yoda planned on having him complete his training but that never happens. Yoda's dying and Luke knows the core of what he needs. But Yoda's adamant that completing his training allows him to 'conquer' the Emperor. The power is there, if he trains.

Ancient Power wrote:Whilst Luke is underestimating the Emperor here. It's important to note that, conversely, if Luke joins the dark side it's the end for the Force per Yoda

Ah, I am glad you agree that Luke thinking he could take on the Emperor is irrelevant.

Your ability to comprehend my argument is certainly a point of interest thus far but that's fine. You can just read what I said above.

However, Luke joining the dark side is not necessarily the cause for the end of the Force. Rather, in the comic, Yoda is lamenting about his old age and how the time of the Jedi has passed. A huge burden is now on Luke Skywalker, since if he falls to the dark side there will be no more champions of the Light Side to keep on fighting.  However, if they remain faithful to the Light, the Empire will fall. If there are no longer champions of the Light Side, then of course Palpatine will win and destroy the force. Luke is not the one doing the destroying here.

How are you providing quotes to prove my position so quickly?



All that you have just said is completely null here, if Luke Skywalker falls to the dark side it's over. The darkness becomes too strong. Your point about there being no more agents or champions of light after him makes me think you didn't even pay attention to Return of the Jedi:

Ancient Power wrote:Darth Vader then realizes that the Emperor's omniscience and invincibility relative to himself and Luke is fraudulent when the Emperor fails to foresee Luke's defiance

Yep, Luke's selflessness proves to Vader that Palpatine is not omnipotent, which allows him to harness "super energies" that allow him to survive just long enough to defeat the Emperor. Previously, the Emperor was toying with Luke and was in no threat at all, along with superior powers to Luke per the script and George.

The Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:Vader also knows that the Emperor is toying with Luke. He has been told by the Emperor, ‘When
he starts to strike me, you’re going to have to take him out.’ If Vader doesn’t block Luke’s lazer sword,
the Emperor could just raise his hand and that would be the end of it. Then Vader would be in trouble:
‘Lord Vader, what happened to you? Did you not get your cue?’ So Vader knows what the Emperor is
doing to the kid—instead of Vader turning Luke to the dark side, maybe the Emperor can. Vader
doesn’t care who does it [because then father and son can unite].
“But Vader doesn’t quite understand the Emperor’s plot. The whole plot of the Emperor is to get
Luke to turn to the dark side and become his apprentice, by killing Vader. Vader doesn’t quite
understand that he’s on the chopping block, until he gets into that fight. He thinks that his job is to kill
the kid, but of course he can’t really kill the kid, and the Emperor knows that he can’t really kill the kid.
The Emperor is playing the two against each other to see which one wins. It’s not until Luke cuts off his
father’s hand that it occurs to Vader what’s going to happen here: He realizes, Wait a minute, I’ve been set
up. Then he also realizes that his son is what Vader was at one point, when Luke’s choice was his choice.
His son refuses to kill him—and that is such a revelation to Vader—it reminds him of what he once was.

The Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:So Vader is not powerful enough to kill the Emperor, but he does so in a very unexpected way. He
does it not out of thinking or fear. He does it out of the super energy of wanting to protect his son, out of
compassion. Vader finally has compassion for his son and realizes that his life has been a sham.

All very cool, Vader also views him as vulnerable due to Luke's defiance. My point remains exactly as it was.

Ancient Power wrote:Now whilst Darth Vader's love for his son is what allows him to actually kill the Emperor, it is telling that an Emperor who is about to achieve a power beyond any in the universe and is already far above an all-powerful 'super Sith' Mustafar Vader is still 'vulnerable' to the duo.

It is not telling at all, considering that despite Vader being amped by super energy, both Luke and Vader were rendered completely unable to move (hell, Vader died) by Palpatine's lightning.

Return of the Jedi Script wrote:Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling . . . Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain.

Secrets of the Sith wrote:The second father-son duel took place on Emperor Palpatine’s second Death Star. Now more able to control the Force, Luke Skywalker was finally able to defeat his powerful father. But he was no match for the evil Emperor.

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:Still lying against the bridge railing beside the elevator shaft, Vader watched the Emperor extend his gnarled fingers and unleash blinding bolts of blue lightning from his fingertips. The lightning struck Luke, who tried to deflect the crackling bands of energy, but was so overwhelmed that his body crumpled to the floor.

The Official Fact Files 120 wrote:Infuriated by Luke’s resilience against the dark side, the Emperor unleashed a deadly torrent of dark side lightning. Skywalker was powerless to resist the onslaught, and his life was fast draining away.

Nice false equivalency. You providing the literal known events of the fight doesn't negate what I said at all. A heavily wounded Vader and a Luke with no form of defense being taken down individually is by no means comparable to Vader aiding Luke in conquering the Emperor.

George Lucas directly says they might be able to defeat him together:

The Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:George Lucas: He knows that if he gets into a laser fight with the Emperor, he won't win. He knows his son can't win. Neither one of them can beat the Emperor. Together they might. In the first sequel, he reveals that when he says, 'Together we can rule the universe.

Thanks for playing, Janix.

Ancient Power wrote:Yoda and Ben can't do this, only Luke can:

Interesting how you cut out the part later in the interview, which says Ben could have done it if not for his old age.

I cut it out because it's irrelevant to my argument and incorrect. Obi-Wan Kenobi at his height was incapable of matching the Emperor 23 years before HiS Imperial Majesty's prime.

Yoda, on the other hand, was a guru during ROTJ's creation, not a fighter.

Is that why originally Yoda would've used his lightsaber to slay swamp creatures just to sample to Luke what a great warrior he could become under his tutelage?



I'm unable to find the passage myself so you'll have to settle for this video discussing the material in question.

Later on, when we find out that Yoda was a warrior, it is revealed that Luke was weaker than Yoda was in the prequels. This is made obvious by how Yoda can handle force lightning, while Luke could not.

Luke isn't adept in the technique. He certainly doesn't have the training and mastery required to perform it to a degree that it works where perhaps the greatest Master ever could only hold his own to a certain degree against a massively less potent version of the same lightning.

To use the source the way you are attempting to, would also necessitate claiming there's a direct power correlation between being able to absorb Darth Tyranus's lightning and being able to absorb the lightning of a canonically far, far superior Sith Lord in his second most powerful iteration.

If you want to push that claim, feel free.

An explanation, despite ROTS enlightenment claims, is even given to us by Pablo Hidalgo and other sources for why Yoda doesn't use these powers in the OT. The death of so many Jedi left his spirit broken (which, in a contest of wills ensures he will almost always lose).

Pablo Hidalgo, Head-to-Head wrote:As Yoda approaches 900 years old, he is slowed down not by age but by a spirit broken after the destruction of the Jedi Order.

Episode III Visual Dictionary wrote:In his contest with Sidious, Yoda realises he is overmatched and deserts the fight, perhaps because his spirit has been broken by so many Jedi deaths.

The Last One Standing wrote:Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it.

As you said before, Qui-Gon training Yoda has been around for a long time.

Revenge of the Sith Jr. Novel wrote:With nothing to do but wait, Yoda automatically found a quiet room and sat down to meditate. The being who had been trying to contact him surely could not reach through the newly strengthened fog of the dark side, but the habit had become strong. And to his surprise, this time the contact succeeded. Qui-Gon Jinn! No wonder the presence had felt familiar. Still much to learn, there is.

Yet still, Yoda gets quotes saying he hasn't moved beyond the Death of the Jedi. Nothing in TCW points to any change in this narrative. Even if it did, mind you, Qui-Gon says that Yoda must abandon all physical self to undergo the training, which would give him a new weakness.



Yoda is, in fact, still an old man in the PT. You're correct. However, that isn't what is holding him back. Nothing in these quotes say Yoda was always "infirm."

You didn't pay any attention, did you? All of those quotes are invalid because Yoda rises above it:



Yoda knows what will happen to the Jedi Order and he prepares for the downfall of the Jedi Order by undergoing the training to become more enlightened and to as you yourself said 'all physical self' which also includes 'everything you fear to lose'. TCW has indeed changed the dynamic entirely, the T-canon source has superceded you.

Ancient Power wrote:Whilst the obvious limitations on his body and thus combat make it hard for him to perform against the fully-fledged Jedi and Sith he was once supreme over in a duel, it's his ability to wield his cosmic Force power with his mind that you truly have to overcome

I'm glad you recognize that Vader is no longer a supreme combatant, but I feel like you are also ignoring just how pathetic his mind is as well. As George Lucas puts it, Vader is a pathetic old man hobbled by his infirmities.

George Lucas, A New Hope Alternative Commentary with Archival Interviews from Cast and Crew wrote:”Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has, so I wanted that relationship of Vader kind of being reduced to, I mean an assistant is too low a word, but he’s a henchmen, which is the impression you had when you saw the first movie by itself, but if you reflect on it a little bit you realize it’s actually not the way it is, the fact that he basically takes orders from Tarkin, who isn’t an equal to him at all, you know he’s way below him, really, but he doesn’t have much choice because he’s hobbled by his infirmities and the New Order, which he’s become a part of.”

See the first part of this response.

Ancient Power wrote:Simply put, Darth Vader's darkness is beyond the control of the Force Priestesses, Yoda and Ben. In terms of his stature in the cosmic Force, he is the darkness and the axis upon which the balance of the Force operates. Only Luke Skywalker is capable of conquering Vader and the Emperor, and restoring the Force before it is too late for anything in the Force and the universe to work.

The Force Priestesses cannot control absolute darkness. I have no idea where this claim that Vader is beyond the Priestesses is coming from, when Vader still has good in him.

The 'absolute darkness' of Moraband is the darkness the Sith wield per the scene and episode guides please pay more attention:

After several grueling trials, Yoda travels to the ancient Sith home world of Moraband, where he must face an ancient evil determined to rule the galaxy.
-https://www.starwars.com/news/the-clone-wars-rewatch-sacrifice

After many grueling trials, Yoda next travels to the ancient Sith home world of Moraband, where he must face an ancient evil determined to rule the galaxy.
-Sacrifice Episode Guide

In short, nothing in your entire post signifies anything.

Your entire response thus far has been long-winded responses to arguments I never made.

THE RETURN

You were better off timing out.

According to George Lucas, we had never seen true Jedi fighting before The Phantom Menace, specifically referencing how often they were fighting in the past for a reason for why everything is more skilled, aggressive, and quick compared to the Original Trilogy.

George Lucas, Birth of the Lightsaber Featurette wrote:Every episode from IV, V, and VI, I kept improving the sword fighting because the assumption was Luke was getting to be a better fighter, he was learning more, but at the same time he wasn't being trained as an original Jedi would have been trained... Then when we moved into the prequel, where the Jedi were in full flower, fighting as they were in the past - well trained Jedi - we had to make the swordfights much much faster, much more sophisticated, and much more aggressive in the ways they were fought.

Pablo reiterates that "'true Jedi fighting" means that the Jedi are fighting with more strength and power than we saw in the original trilogy.



Knights of the Old Republic is very similar to this, with the constant epic battles between Jedi and Sith also giving them claim to be above the Original Trilogy.

You've conflated Jedi in the Old Republic era being in many wars and thus being experienced, with Jedi in the Old Republic era being as combatively adept as Jedi in the 'prime of the Jedi'. So, you'll need to find actual quotes of combative skill comparisons, not vaguely worded appeals to the fact the Clone Wars was one war as opposed to the four in 50 years.

Revan is the absolute epitome of the KOTOR Jedi, and learned everything he could from the Order and beyond.

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters: that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever.

Star Wars the Old Republic - Revan wrote:Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.

Juhani, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:You must realize that Revan was as great as a Jedi could be.

Dorak, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:Revan's tale shows us how even the greatest of Jedi can fall to the dark side.

Carth Onasi, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:Our heroes had become brutal, conquering Sith, and we were all but helpless before them. Think about it, if you can't even trust the best of the Jedi, who can you trust?

Revan's power was so great that he was a blinding nexus of force energy, and could use the force "Skywalker-style" with specific references to Anakin Skywalker.

Ajunta Pall, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"You - the Force is with you. So strong, so bright."

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul.

[/quote]

I mean besides BioWare bigging up the player character for their game, which really only speaks to their intent and has no bearing on an actualy comparison to Anakin Skywalker, this really doesn't mean much given the prior.

Darth Revan is even said to be among the three most powerful Sith Lords of all time in 2008.

Wizards of the Coast: Sith Showdown wrote:The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?

Great quote, but not for Malgus and it certainly isn't a smoking gun given the breadth of much greater statements for Darth Vader, but I'll get to that further along.

Which is not only a supremacy statement to Darth Vader, but to Count Dooku, who makes Luke (Vader's equal) seem "not that powerful."

See the first time you used this quote.

This sentiment is confirmed again by the Dark Side Source Book and Wizards of the Coast with Malak receiving stats much beyond Darth Vader, which were overseen by Bill Slavicsek and Leland Chee (two grand overseers of continuity). The Darth Malak article specifically references the Dark Side Source Book, and therefore built off its foundations. This is in spite of stats potraying Darth Vader much beyond his Georgian Intent. Darth Vader at his best potrayal is still below Revan.





Saga Edition making similar claims, with Darth Revan being better than Darth Vader across every axis.







A much stronger version of Revan then faces Novel Vitiate alongside Lord Scourge and Meetra Surrik. Revan believes that alone he doesn't stand a chance, but with the aid of his allies they may stand a chance. However, during the fight Lord Scourge discovers that this was a battle they were destined to lose, favoring a New Champion of the Force over Revan.

Revan, Star Wars the Old Republic: Revan wrote:In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even
fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful
now, but was he a match for the Emperor?
Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and
even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

Star Wars the Old Republic: Revan wrote:The Force washed over him in a wave, and a million possible futures flickered
through his mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others
he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both
Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life
and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.
He had to choose, but there was no way to know which was the most likely
outcome, or what actions of his would lead to which results. Revan had said
visions could guide the Jedi, but for Scourge they brought nothing but confusion.
The moment passed and the universe began to move again, though everything
seemed to be happening in slow motion. Revan and Meetra stepped forward,
ready to initiate the final confrontation. Scourge knew he had to act now; he had
to make his choice.
In a sudden moment of clarity he saw the Emperor lying defeated at the feet of
a powerful Jedi ... but that Jedi was neither Revan nor Meetra. And the Sith
Lord knew what he had to do.

300 years later, the Champion arrived in the form of the Hero of Tython, a far more experienced and powerful Lord Scourge believes that he is completely incapable of aiding in the fight against Act 3 Vitiate. Vitiate has become so powerful that Scourge is no longer an asset in battle, unlike he was with Revan. The Hero of Tython battles through Dromund Kaas, soon proving that this version of the Emperor truly was no match for him.







Revan, upon his freedom in SWTOR's Act 2, shares to the Jedi Council everything he knows about Vitiate. In response, the Jedi creates a strike team composed of the strongest Jedi of the era.







Vitiate proves once again that he is above all concepts of himself, giving perhaps the most dominating display in all of Star Wars. Forcing the Jedi (including the Hero of Tython) to acknowledge his massive superiority.

SWTOR Codex - The Fall of Tol Braga wrote:A one-time respected member of the Jedi Council and its most
fervent advocate for peace, Master Tol Braga now willingly serves
the Sith Emperor. His confrontation with that foe showed him the
nature of true evil and revealed a powerful force he had grossly
underestimated. Master Braga’s failure to redeem the Emperor broke
his spirit. With his pride and faith shattered, he succumbed to
nihilistic despair.

However, when the Hero of Tython faces Vitiate again, he is confident that he can slay the Emperor regardless of if he is allowed to recover or not.



Despite the Hero of Tython being so much better than Revan, he finds a peer in the deadliest Sith Warrior in the Empire composed of millions: Darth Malgus.



Per the Hero of Tython himself, Darth Malgus was a perfect duelist, who he only managed to defeat through exploiting his Sith rage via the help of his teammates.

The Hero of Tython | False Emperor Flashpoint wrote:“Malgus’s lightsaber form was flawless, but he let anger and desperation cloud his fighting. He faltered, and I followed through. We never would have defeated Malgus by working alone.”

All fantastic numbers but woefully lacking for what's coming. See another, much more recent game than any one of those, shows us the following:




So according to these stats, which actually considers SWTOR characters, Darth Revan is one point less powerful than vanilla/FE Darth Malgus is (See: Dark Council member) but smarter and roughly the same in all other feasible categories. So in actuality, statistics also show Malgus nearly on par with a Darth Revan who you say gets flatlined by the Revan on Dromund Kaas.

But enough of the children's games. Your last quote is essentially just nitpicking. The Hero of Tython does in fact defeat Darth Malgus solo, and says the same thing without that final sentence:



Meaning that really all I can take away from that is that Malgus's lightsaber technique wavered under pressure and he died. Hero of Tython isn't the only character capable of soloing him either:

"Malgus spent more time plotting his deceptions than he did studying the Force. Thankfully, my studies weren’t as weak." - Barsen'thor

The Barsen'thor, much weaker than the Hero of Tython per everything you just said, is more powerful in the Force than Darth Malgus and won that way. Which strongly calls into question just how close Malgus actually is to the Hero of Tython.

Exploiting Rage is a tactic that Luke notes is viable about most Sith Lords, given how he has fought three of them, it is probable to say Vader is among those he is considering with such a general claim. The ROTJ novelization depicting Vader being overwhelmed with rage in much the same way.





After being dealt a fatal blow, Malgus still manages to survive the space station's fleet destroying self-destruction, and is reconstructed to be stronger and more durable than ever before.

Jedi Under Siege wrote:Recovered from the wreckage of his coup attempt and revived with a dizzying array of exotic and cutting-edge technologies, Darth Malgus is as powerful and ruthless as ever. His face bears even more scars, his body even more cybernetics; his armor has been reconstructed and enhanced to increase his strength and endurance still further. But through all of this change, Malgus the man has retained the same unyielding determination in pursuit of his sole, brutal goal: the total annihilation of the Jedi, the destruction of the corrupt Republic they serve, and the evolution of the Empire into a society worthy of the power of the Sith.

In Onslaught, Malgus faces the Hero of Tython again after several years, and believes he can kill the Hero easily.





Only to discover that the Outlander was much beyond his previous conceptions.

Indeed, it's also stated by Emperor Vowrawn that Darth Malgus is as strong as ever, but not stronger. He's the same as ever, pretty much:



So unless you can provide a source stating Darth Malgus actually got stronger, he's maybe a rough equal to Darth Revan per stats and he is inferior to the Barsen'thor and far inferior to the Hero of Tython as they were as of the battle of Ilum.

Darth Malgus later frees himself from the mind control of the Sith Empire, and undergoes a spiritual transformation. He claims that he has fulfilled the core axiom of the Sith code: breaking his chains. He believes he is utterly unstoppable now.



When he encounters the Outlander yet again, he again believes the Outlander is no match.

So what you mean to tell me is that Darth Malgus has repeatedly shown he's a horrible judge of someone's power and is repeatedly proven to be false in his belief in his own power like countless Sith, against literally the same character. That ain't a good look champ.

So in the end we get:

LOTS Malgus > Malgus' conception of the HoT > Onslaught Malgus > False Emperor Malgus >~ Act 3 HoT > Act 3 HoT’s conception of Act 2 Vitiate >>> Act 2 Jedi Strike Team > Act 2 Jedi Council’s/HoT’s perception of Vitiate ~ Act 2 Revan’s conception of Vitiate > Novel Revan’s conception of Vitiate > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >> Darth Vader

OR

LOTS Malgus > Malgus' conception of the HoT > Onslaught Malgus > False Emperor Malgus >~ Act 3 HoT >> Act 3 Vitiate >> Novel Vitiate >/~ Novel Revan + Novel Scourge + Meetra Surik > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >> Darth Vader

Doesn't look like we get that at all, I'm afraid.

Rage and the Sustain

Darth Malgus is the foremost user of harnessing rage to fuel his body, he is so amazing at this that Malgus acquired unrivaled battlefield feats and becomes Palpatine's inspiration for creating force storms.



Unlike Vader, Malgus was able to sustain himself through his rage, despite his injuries.

So your source for this claim to superiority is also one that literally says that a pre-prime Darth Vader got handed all of Darth Malgus's teachings and musings on this exact point? Interesting.

Star Wars Galaxies of Heroes describes his rage as having a direct correlation to his constitution, giving him considerably more health the angrier he gets.



Upon stacking his rage enough in Legacy of the Sith, he is able to harness the power exactly as Palpatine has foreseen: force storms are created that deal devastating damage against the players.




His rage and durability is so immense, that he can take a fatal injury and still survive a fleet destroying explosion.



He is then reconstructed more durable than ever, resulting in him being more durable than Arcann in the eyes of Charles Boyd, the then story director of SWTOR.

Jedi Under Siege wrote:Recovered from the wreckage of his coup attempt and revived with a dizzying array of exotic and cutting-edge technologies, Darth Malgus is as powerful and ruthless as ever. His face bears even more scars, his body even more cybernetics; his armor has been reconstructed and enhanced to increase his strength and endurance still further. But through all of this change, Malgus the man has retained the same unyielding determination in pursuit of his sole, brutal goal: the total annihilation of the Jedi, the destruction of the corrupt Republic they serve, and the evolution of the Empire into a society worthy of the power of the Sith.

Arcann is not only capable of enduring various lightsaber strikes made from a weapon specifically designed to kill him, but endure Valkorion's lightning for around a minute as channeled through the Hero of Tython and survive to tell the tale.




Meanwhile, Vader cannot endure a few seconds of unfocused lightning from a similar figure to Valkorion -- Palpatine -- despite being amplified by the super energies of love.

Every other feat you've shown besides the last claim is entirely irrelevant next to Vader so for now I'll focus on the claim that actually matters.

Weaker than ever, which would include immediately after his immolation where he was dying and nigh limbless, Darth Vader does indeed die after the super energy which was all the power he had left:

Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.

Tulak Hord is superior to Redeemed Revan, Darth Malak and Exar Kun as a duelist:

"This was the tomb of Tulak Hord, known as the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords. His skill was considered remarkable even in his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived. If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."

Kas'im is perhaps the greatest duelist in history, per an out-of-universe narrator point-of-view, written by Drew Karpyshyn no less:

Path of Destruction wrote:Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever.

This means that the Banite line began with the greatest swordsman of all-time. Allow me to ellaborate:

Path of Destruction wrote:Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.

He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber. Kas'im flipped back and out through the door into the hall beyond, but Bane was relentless in his pursuit, leaping forward and coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the Twilek's leg.

His strike was turned aside at the last second, but he quickly followed it up with another series of powerful thrusts and stabs. The Blademaster continued to give ground, pushed inexorably back by the raging storm of Bane's onslaught. Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage.

The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.

The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life. But he didn't know the Temple like Bane did. Bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway.

Recognizing what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of a side room with the Force and dived inside. Bane knew there was no other exit, and he paused at the threshold of the room to savor his victory.

The Twi'lek stood in the center of the empty chamber, panting heavily, stooped ever so slightly, his head bowed. He looked up when Bane stepped through the doorway. But when his gaze met Bane's, there was no hint of defeat in his eyes.

Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And be leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions.

Parrying the first sequence Bane realized his former Master had always been holding something in reserve . . . just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. Only now was he seeing Kas'im's true ability, and he was barely able to defend himself. Barely, but still able.

His opponent grunted in surprise when Bane warded him off, then stepped back to regroup. He'd come in hard and fast, expecting to end their battle quickly. Now he had to reevaluate his strategy.

"You're better than you were when we last fought," he said, clearly impressed and making no attempt to hide it.

"So are you," Bane responded.

Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense

.

Darth Bane prior to decades of constant martial improvement, was more than holding his own against Kas'im. Everything a desperate Kas'im attempted was thwarted by Bane.

I would remind you of the fact that per Galactic File, FE Malgus's fighting ability stat is the same as Darth Revan's, which means we get this result in dueling skill:

Darth Bane > Kas'im > Tulak Hord > Darth Malak > Redeemed Revan > Darth Revan/Darth Malgus

Which it should go without saying doesn't bode very well for Darth Malgus's supposed combative dominance over Lord Vader.


The most powerful Force user in the Star Wars mythos is the Father, per Leland Chee:



Mortis is the fulcrum of the Force itself:



The Son and the Daughter create the balance of the Force, which the Father maintains:



In the Mortis arc, the Father's losing control of the Son and  the Daughter, putting them in proximity to the Father collectively:



So the Father, who is stronger than everyone, exists for the purpose of maintaining the balance of the Force whilst the Son and the Daughter create it with their equilibrium.

The Daughter dies, destroying the balance of the Force which empowers the Sith Lords:




The Son's become so powerful that his Force lightning is too intense for the Father to deflect:



The Daughter is still the Son's equal too:



This means the Son is powerful enough that he shares at least near parity with the most powerful Force user in the Star Wars mythos. With the Son and the Father dead, there is, for the first time in galactic history, nothing creating or maintaining the balance of the Force. This leaves, as I said on day one, the likes of Darth Sidious and Anakin Skywalker the full reign to control everything now that they're dead. For the first time ever, the Ones, canonically the most powerful Force users ever, are no longer maintaining the balance.

Total dominion of the Force, which is 'interred' in Vader alongside Anakin's soul, the ascension of the dark side and of the greatest Sith lord ever to the 'unstoppable power' in the universe that is 'tier 10', Vader and Luke hot on his tails to the point they 'might' kill him per Lucas. All of this is at a level never seen before and it's a level utterly beyond the Outlander's new favourite delusional punching bag.

Malgus is dealing with a being empowered by the dark side to a scale that has never even been witnessed before.

Lord Vader massacres.

Since AP rage quit SI, I no longer see any obligation to respond within the set schedule. My post will come out to set things straight, but as a leisurely pace as I pursue my career and education.

You will respond within the given schedule or not at all. Also, don't frame my leaving the server as a 'rage quit'. I'm just moving on. Nothing more or less.

Janix has failed to respond in the two months granted in the rules since my response. I win.

Non-SI members don't get to decide that they win. You left the community, I have no obligation to this.

AP lost.

Janix wrote:Non-SI members don't get to decide that they win. You left the community, I have no obligation to this.

AP lost.

I left the server and told Ant and others that I'd finish the debate on the site. You had a set time of two months to respond and tried yet again to wiggle out of this, I told you the day you claimed you could do as you wanted with the agreed time limit that you in fact do have to obey the rules. You failed to respond and you lost. Accept your failure.