Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

Outlander as of the Invasion of Ossus. Maul and Savage as of their fight against Sidious on Mandalore.

Outlander, good fight.

Maul solos

@Praxis Welcome to the forum, btw.

Outlander is accepted to be above Revan generally

You have Maul soloing Revan?

The Outlander as of Ossus is portrayed as relative equal of Malgus and had issues with Gnost.

Without the Valk fragment powering them up they above average but not extraordinary. Maul should solo with Savage making a good partner.

IIRC he tanked Vaylin's force attacks

LOTL wrote:IIRC he tanked Vaylin's force attacks

So did the smuggler variant of the Outlander.



It's very clear that it was due to either the Valk fragment or pure willpower.

We have clear examples of Valk protecting the Outlander with their knowledge or consent. This is just another one.

@Greysentinel365: Valk give the outlander (if non force user) the ability to use the force. If the Outlander is a force user, he increase his force power. But where I disagree with you is that we have no proof of a decrease of power of the Outlander after the destruction of Valkorion. Basically I think that the increase is perpetual.

LOTL wrote:Outlander is accepted to be above Revan generally

You have Maul soloing Revan?

Revan is extraneous to this. I just generally don't buy into the Outlander hype, at all. The thing that kills it for me is Vaylin's feat in KotFE Chapter 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHCH_Bz75hg&t=435s

At 7:15, she's evidently struggling with tearing the power generator apart. Not saying she was pushing herself to the absolute limit, but it's clearly not a casual feat either. This puts a definite cap on her strength. Then consider that the structure isn't that big relatively speaking (I'd estimate it to be about the same size as the dreadnought Anakin threw as a Padawan, and it's certainly smaller than the barracks Maul could have demolished as a 15-year-old), and that she didn't even destroy the whole thing, just one side of it:





The generator is still mostly intact besides that one side, which isn't even 50% of the building. Then we have Satele stating Zakuul is a Force nexus, meaning Vaylin would have been amplified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlmuz2rSOW0&t=942s

And apparently this Vaylin is more powerful than SoR/start of KotFE Outlander. According to Valkorion, ragdolling is only "a fraction of the pain" his children could inflict.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlmuz2rSOW0&t=515s

So if Valkorion's to be believed, Vaylin could stomp the Outlander, yet caps out at tearing apart the power generator. I'm not aware of anything that indicates KotFE Arcann is massively more powerful than KotFE Vaylin, and his best feat is manhandling the Outlander too, so at best he can be wanked decently above the power generator feat, but no higher than that, as I see it.

Then we fast forward to Chapter 16 where the Outlander has supposedly grown stronger than Arcann and beats him… but it turns out his lightsaber gave him an amp against Arcann specifically, so he can't generally be scaled above him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlmuz2rSOW0&t=1276s



In KotET Chapter 3, he didn't have that amp against Vaylin, so her victory isn't necessarily even an indication that she's superior to KotFE Arcann. Later on she even seemingly stalemates Arcann in Chapter 6, and I haven't seen any indication Arcann grew from KotFE. She only becomes legitimately impressive once she breaks her chains in Chapter 7. And while the Outlander does appear to beat her in Chapter 8, when she unleashes her full power, he struggles immensely to fight through it. Note that the Outlander would only have been forced to block the amount of her energy that was hitting the surface area of his body, which is a fraction of the totality as it was being released omnidirectionally. Had she focused it all on him, I'm not convinced he would have endured given his difficulties to withstand even the small amount that he did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy6tVhbCsZ4&t=805

So to summarize why I don't buy into the Outlander hype:

• I don't think the Outlander can be scaled from Unchained Vaylin; he is decidedly inferior to her maximum, unbridled potency.
  
• Without Unchained Vaylin, we can only estimate him to be an unquantifiable amount above KotFE Arcann and Vaylin, who are limited by the power generator feat.
  

In contrast, Maul scales from much more impressive telekinesis feats like the Orsis barracks feat and Anakin's dreadnought feat by a much greater amount. And against other Force users, we know Sidious needed an opening to telekinetically affect Maul in Shadow Conspiracy, and while Sidious was indeed holding back as we see at the end, from Maul's perspective this was not the case at the time:

The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

[...]

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.


The fact that Maul thinks Sidious is trying to kill him here, even if technically untrue, indicates that from Maul's perspective, Sidious is fighting harder against him than he ever has. This includes the time he speedblitzed Maul around TPM, and on Hypori in 37 BBY. I consider both those iterations of Sidious to be much, much more powerful and deadly than Unchained Vaylin, and Maul's performance is better against him than the Outlander's against her.

So by my reckoning, Maul has the Outlander beaten in both environmental telekinesis feats and combat feats against other Force users. Dueling should be a no-brainer.

That was one massive lowball attempt that ignores Chained!Vaylin's best feats and is frankly atrocious.

Vaylin did this:

A Mother's Hope wrote:A shrill whine rose like a scream: the sound of pressurized coolant spewing from a punctured hyperdrive. Senya had just long enough to register what had happened before the damaged hyperdrive exploded.

She came to a few seconds later, groggy, disoriented and with her ears ringing. The blast had thrown her twenty meters; tiny bits of twisted, melted metal that had once been the hull of the ship lay all around her. Forcing herself to her hands and knees, Senya turned her head from side to side, looking for Vaylin. But all she saw was smoke and flame; the fires had spread to consume the entire camp.

Arcann!

Somehow Senya rose unsteadily to her feet, then set off in a stumbling run back towards her ship and her son. As the flames fell farther and farther behind her, her head slowly cleared. Her thoughts briefly turned to the fallen knights, consumed by the funeral pyre that had once been their camp. They'd risked their lives to help her, and Vaylin had slaughtered them all.

She and Arcann were alone again. No allies. Nowhere to turn. But she was still alive… somehow.

The blast should have vaporized me.

There was only one explanation for her survival: Vaylin must have used the Force to shield them both from the worst of the explosion.

Whilst having already expended energy tearing apart ships, slaughtering Knights of Zakuul and fighting Senya immediately prior. This feat is incredible when one considers that in SWTOR, there are hyperdrive explosions on the multi-system tier.

Then there's the fact that she is too powerful for Valkorion's spirit to control. In fact, she routinely causes Valkorion's spirit to vanish. Thus, she scales by magnitudes, from Ziost.

@Grey, Outlander didn't suddenly lose power. Valkorion states outright that these boons were permanent transformations that made the Outlander a being powerful enough to be his host.

Nor has anything you said about Ossus been stated anywhere.

I have absolutely no idea on the source material, I generally shy away from these kinds of debates but here, I can point out the obvious gaps in logic in some of your stances in this argument:

1. Not sure I agree on your analysis that she needed effort to do the feat. The most that can be said is that she needed to gesture to do it, but Obi Wan needed to gesture to move the starship in Obsession, but a much weaker Obi Wan could tk manhandle a cruiser by enveloping it in force energy, without effort, obviously without gesturing. The way I see it, if you don't have the strain on your face, you generally are not strained, regardless if you gesture or not.

2. Not sure I agree on the lightsaber being amped by facing Arcann only. Obviously, since I lack knowledge, this may not be correct, but based on your picture, no. Ignoring the fact that it doesn't make that much sense, the title seems to imply that the lightsaber is naturally attuned to the force, and the stats seem to imply a general increase in power, not something specific to Arcann

The picture may be referring to Arcann in the sense that that is his target, or the objective, not that the power he got by the lightsaber is only applicable to Arcann

3. I might agree about the Vaylin part partially, but even there, his performance is vastly more impressive than the performance of Arcann against her, as you've admitted, he stalemates Vaylin earlier on.

Furthermore, he does manage to breach the inner barrier and later on manages to tank her berserk blast, being yeah, right in front of her. We've seen the likes of Sidious get minor burns and minor scrapes across the face from the blast of Galen, yet he is completely unharmed here. You may or may not scale the Outlander's performance off that of Sidious's but if you do, the Outlander comes off as comparable to Vaylin

There is nothing that directly associates Outlander/Arcann/Vaylin with Revan. There is one quote that has been peddled (Outlander being Valkorion's greatest/most powerful foe or whatever), which semantically does not require them to be more powerful than Revan, and also clearly does not refer to Force power seeing as it can be applied to the non-Force using protags as well.

Also, the team obviously wins this.

OT: Outlander very clearly wins.

The Outlander~Unchained Vaylin>>Chained Vaylin>Spirit Valkorion>Ziost.

The Outlander gives the duo the Sidious treatment.

LOTL wrote:1. Not sure I agree on your analysis that she needed effort to do the feat. The most that can be said is that she needed to gesture to do it, but Obi Wan needed to gesture to move the starship in Obsession, but a much weaker Obi Wan could tk manhandle a cruiser by enveloping it in force energy, without effort, obviously without gesturing. The way I see it, if you don't have the strain on your face, you generally are not strained, regardless if you gesture or not.

As I said, I don't think she exerted herself to her very limit, but I don't think it's a casual feat for her either. She extends her arms and the building buckles but doesn't shatter even though she was channelling Force energy and twisting her arms around that entire time - that's indication she met resistance. That Obi-Wan chose to gesture in situation X when we know he didn't need to is a bit of a false analogy: with Vaylin, we have no indication her maximum output is significantly greater than what she displayed with the power generator, and the visuals of the feat convey she didn't accomplish it effortlessly.

2. Not sure I agree on the lightsaber being amped by facing Arcann only. Obviously, since I lack knowledge, this may not be correct, but based on your picture, no. Ignoring the fact that it doesn't make that much sense, the title seems to imply that the lightsaber is naturally attuned to the force, and the stats seem to imply a general increase in power, not something specific to Arcann

The picture may be referring to Arcann in the sense that that is his target, or the objective, not that the power he got by the lightsaber is only applicable to Arcann

Yes, the lightsaber is generally more attuned to the Force than his previous one, but that doesn't contradict the idea it would be exceptionally efficient against Arcann. That the item description singles him out, coupled with the characters' dialogue, makes it obvious to me it's meant to combat Arcann over any other foe. Darth Marr states that "The weapon you wield was built for a different war. A different enemy. It no longer serves you. It must change, as you have." Satele and the Outlander's conversation earlier on is particularly revelatory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlmuz2rSOW0&t=953s

Satele Shan: "Arcann and his Knights learned to use the Force in a different way from Jedi and Sith. It's why we couldn't truly defeat them."

The Outlander: "I faced plenty of warriors from Zakuul. They fell, the same as everyone else."

Satele Shan: "Don't confuse them with Arcann. And his sister is another problem entirely. Jedi approach the Force as a companion, and Sith try to enslave it. But Arcann's knights believe the Force is their reward for serving an ideal. They swear their lives to the Eternal Emperor. The more they honor his commandments, the greater their power. The knights obey their master without question, sacrificing everything for his triumph. Devotion makes them strong. You must become stronger."


Satele Shan: "Jedi approach the Force as a companion, and Sith try to enslave it. Arcann and his kind... negotiate. They bargain with the Force in exchange for its power. The more they offer in sacrifice, the greater their reward--and they'll pay any price. That's what makes them strong. You must become stronger."


Satele explains that Arcann and the Zakuulan Knights' view on the Force transcends the Jedi and Sith's conventional understanding of light and dark. A hefty chunk of a Force user's strength comes from their mindset, and a greater understanding of the Force usually results in growing more powerful, so this makes sense. The reason the Knights of Zakuul fell to the Outlander's blade was because their general power level was much lower than his, but earlier Satele laments how the even the most powerful of the Jedi failed over and over to defeat the Knights, and explains that this was the case with the Sith too, so they are stronger than even the above-average Jedi or Sith because of their unique philosophy. Arcann, however, is on the Outlander's overall tier whereas the Knights were not, as Satele notes - "Don't confuse them with Arcann" - which is why Darth Marr adds that "Victory over Arcann requires new perspectives… and new weapons."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlmuz2rSOW0&t=1089s

Valkorion too comments on this to both the light and dark side classes: "The Force is with you, Jedi, but it will not defeat my son. It never could," and "You have mastered the dark side of the Force. It is not enough. It never was," respectively:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlmuz2rSOW0&t=425s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_7WT1yrgKU&t=330

Maybe the item description for the lightsaber should be more clear now: its "special properties" are designed to counteract the advantages Arcann's understanding of the Force provides him over the Outlander. Vaylin, however, doesn't share Arcann's view on the Force. Satele distinguishes Arcann from the Knights, and Vaylin further from Arcann: "Don't confuse them with Arcann. And his sister is another problem entirely." She repeatedly makes mention of "Arcann and his Knights...", "Arcann and his kind…", but never mentions Vaylin. This makes sense, however, as she was being conditioned on Nathema since her early adolescence, and by the time she emerges, she's a fully grown adult. She never received the same training Arcann did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbpDxrew4A0&t=122

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU2_M0CUhtU

So no, when facing Vaylin, I don't think the Outlander's new lightsaber would grant him the same boon it did when he fought Arcann.

3. I might agree about the Vaylin part partially, but even there, his performance is vastly more impressive than the performance of Arcann against her, as you've admitted, he stalemates Vaylin earlier on.

Furthermore, he does manage to breach the inner barrier and later on manages to tank her berserk blast, being yeah, right in front of her. We've seen the likes of Sidious get minor burns and minor scrapes across the face from the blast of Galen, yet he is completely unharmed here. You may or may not scale the Outlander's performance off that of Sidious's but if you do, the Outlander comes off as comparable to Vaylin

I don't deny he performed better than Arcann, which is why I note that he does scale above the power generator feat.

But no, I don't get your argument here. He only penetrates her barrier with his lightsaber while she was directing a vast portion of her energies towards destruction, not defence. And I don't know what "berserk blast" you're referring to; the only attack he endured was the omnidirectional one she unleashed, and that with immense effort and struggle. If you mean the purple energy coming out of her body toward the Outlander, that's not an energy blast; that was Valkorion absorbing her spirit as he reveals later on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy6tVhbCsZ4&t=910

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTNYICZ8twg&t=1092

As for your Galen/Palpatine comparison, the latter is only harmed in the comic. All other media depict him emerging completely unscathed from the ordeal, and at least three sources note Galen was "no match" for the Emperor's power. So no, this is a faulty comparison. Galen doesn't rival the Emperor's full potency, and the Outlander being unharmed only means his own defenses weren't penetrated, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that it was an arduous task for him to walk toward her while taking only a fraction of her power.

The Chosen One wrote:The Outlander~Unchained Vaylin>>Chained Vaylin>Spirit Valkorion>Ziost.

The Outlander gives the duo the Sidious treatment.

Nothing indicates Valkorion would have the same unrestricted access to the full scope of his powers as he did on Ziost when he isn't even drawing fully on the Outlander's midi-chlorians to subsist in the physical realm. He himself comments Vaylin isn't actually stronger than him despite his failure to affect her with his time manipulation. When the two are both in spirit form inside the Outlander's head - meaning a completely level playing field - he is able to effortlessly carry and command her essence, and mindrapes and dominates her with practically a snap of his fingers.

No SWTOR character scales from Ziost. Valkorion would one-shot the Outlander and Vaylin combined.

Whilst it's unlikely The Godlander can dominate the brothers, like some believe, he does take this after a good fight.

Valkorion's spirit is far more powerful than Vitiate's as a result of Ziost. How are people misunderstanding this?

DC77 wrote:Whilst it's unlikely The Godlander can dominate the brothers, like some believe, he does take this after a good fight.

Why?

Azronger wrote:As I said, I don't think she exerted herself to her very limit, but I don't think it's a casual feat for her either. She extends her arms and the building buckles but doesn't shatter even though she was channelling Force energy and twisting her arms around that entire time - that's indication she met resistance. That Obi-Wan chose to gesture in situation X when we know he didn't need to is a bit of a false analogy: with Vaylin, we have no indication her maximum output is significantly greater than what she displayed with the power generator, and the visuals of the feat convey she didn't accomplish it effortlessly.

So...your entire argument for a cap on chained Vaylin's power is...somehow not instantly eviscerating a moderately sized structure? Is it possible she initially underestimated the amount of power required, and thus had to increase her power output slightly once she met resistance? There are many possible explanations for this that have nothing to do with a power cap for her. This is a massive reach and a hilariously incompetent attempt to shove powerful characters under the rug because you don't like them.

Savage puts him through a wall.

There's no way the Outlander doesn't win this.

ILS wrote:There is nothing that directly associates Outlander/Arcann/Vaylin with Revan. There is one quote that has been peddled (Outlander being Valkorion's greatest/most powerful foe or whatever), which semantically does not require them to be more powerful than Revan, and also clearly does not refer to Force power seeing as it can be applied to the non-Force using protags as well.

Also, the team obviously wins this.

Wait, what? It's made clear as day in Shadow of Revan that Revan wouldn't stand a chance against Vitiate, spirit or not. The spirit that Chained!Vaylin outright overwhelms is far more powerful than that given the massive power increase from Ziost.

LadyKulvax wrote:

ILS wrote:There is nothing that directly associates Outlander/Arcann/Vaylin with Revan. There is one quote that has been peddled (Outlander being Valkorion's greatest/most powerful foe or whatever), which semantically does not require them to be more powerful than Revan, and also clearly does not refer to Force power seeing as it can be applied to the non-Force using protags as well.

Also, the team obviously wins this.

Wait, what? It's made clear as day in Shadow of Revan that Revan wouldn't stand a chance against Vitiate, spirit or not. The spirit that Chained!Vaylin outright overwhelms is far more powerful than that given the massive power increase from Ziost.

ILS is right.