SS - Starkiller (ArkhamAsylum3) vs Qui-Gon Jinn (Meatpants)

I. THE RETURN OF THE STRAW-MAN

The fact that Starkiller regained some strength is not mutually exclusive with the idea that he's still highly weakened.

Where in my post did I say Starkiller was at full reserves, or that he wasn't weakened to an extent by his previous feats?

All of the overwhelming evidence says Starkiller was highly weakened by his experience within the pit, and the idea that he wasn't seems wholly conjecture based and without a scrap of evidence to support it.

Where in my post did I present the idea that Starkiller wasn’t weakened by the test?



I never said the pit didn't weaken Starkiller. You stated: "Starkiller was in a near-death state here", I was asking for the evidence that proves this fact. Instead, you've given me a bunch of points on why being placed in a pit and starved for a long period of time would have weakened Starkiller. Thanks! Nothing suggests he was "near-death".

(1) The task was designed to press Starkiller to his limits/test his endurance, and at the start of the novel we witness its very end (i.e. once he'd been tested to his limits), so it's pretty much a guarantee Starkiller was running low on reserves - Vader isn't setting him tasks that aren't immensely challenging.

How is running low on reserves mutually exclusive with being “near-death”? He could be at 10% or 20% reserves and still be on low reserves, yet not “near-death”. Where’s the evidence that he was about to die?

(2) As a continuation of point (1), we know that Vader has plenty of data to draw off of, and had gradually been upping the difficulty of the tests each time - Starkiller had to endure longer and longer periods of time in isolation without basic resources - so it's basically a given that he has an idea of how to push Starkiller to the very limit.

No, all that proves is that Vader is testing Starkiller's limits. There’s no evidence that Vader is ensuring Starkiller is on the literal brink of death every time he goes through the test.

(3) The text emphasises Starkiller's struggle with his "fallible body", "weak mind" and "faltering spirit" within the present showing that he was on the verge of failure then and there - not in the future (the text even immediately follows up by saying that he may "never emerge at all" from the pit).

Since when have these descriptors been synonymous with being on the brink of death? The descriptors still apply if he’s low on reserves, yet not close to death.

The Force Unleashed II Novelisation wrote:His enemy wasn't physical in the sense of a foe he could strike down or manipulate. It was himself-his fallible body, his weak mind, his faltering spirit. He would endure and emerge whole, or never emerge at all.

He's talking about his enemies during this test. They weren't physical, but mental. This isn't saying Starkiller is "near-death".

--- --- ---

As to the relevance of that point here, Starkiller wouldn't consider the task to require absolute focus if he had anywhere close to his full reserves - it would be virtually effortless if he did - and the text even comments that he "shied away from memory and contemplation" specifically because his "very survival was at stake".

I'm not denying that Starkiller was being pushed here, and he's clearly conserving his energy as well as possible, but I'm still not seeing the connection between that and him being "near-death". All this proves is that he's shying away from thought to continue his meditative trance.

--- --- ---

That doesn't preclude him from still being exhausted/hindered

Yet again, I never stated he wasn't hindered or exhausted, nor is that my ulterior motive. 

POWER

Ignoring the obvious point that Starkiller was exhausted (making him - in this instance - incomparable to his original self), you need to substantiate that the Starkiller Clone is > the original Starkiller - I'm not inclined to just accept it without sourcing.

All the sources are here. The clone has all the skills and powers of the original, was taught new skills by Vader per the novelisation and has even more Force powers at his disposal.

Seeing also that you used Nick Gillard’s comments from an email outside published material, I may also use “author” comments as evidence, in which case, Sam Witwer in Insider says Starkiller is more combatively lethal than he ever was, even despite his emotional conflict.

By contrast, what you're arguing is that Vader is a literal stomp gap above his previous self

Lol, I never said that. If I’m correct, you may be referring to the TFU1 fight, in which case I have no space to go into it. I refer readers to my first post on this page; it details why Starkiller’s telekinetic domination of Vader happened only after Vader had suffered a serious of deep cuts and lacked the strength to keep his lightsaber steady. There’s no blitz gap. I will quote the most important section (for those readers that require context): 

Galen stomping Vader in TFU 1 demonstrably is likewise indicative of how a full-strength Starkiller vs Vader would have gone in TFU 2.

Contradicted by all the quotes saying the clone is more skilled, has more Force powers and is more combatively lethal.

My point stands: Vader experienced growth between the two games.

--- --- ---

The feats are relevant to his exhaustion because they show how a full power Starkiller would do against Vader and also indicate how great of a quantity of his reserves he used up - he unleashes his full potency twice over.

The Salvation feat was done as a last-ditch attempt out of love for Juno.

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelisation wrote:Starkiller closed his eyes. He didn't have time to wonder what was going through her mind. He had to think of something fast, or Juno was going to die.

There was only one thing he could do, and although he knew he wasn't likely to survive, he didn't hesitate. What was death when the love of his former life was at stake? Besides, anything was possible. Dying, as he had thought once before, always seemed to bring out the best in him.

With his mind and all the power of the Force, Starkiller embraced what remained of the frigate beneath him-and blew it into a billion pieces.

A suicidal blast (from his POV) motivated by the love of Juno isn’t a combat applicable feat in a neutral setting on neutral ground.

The fact that Starkiller managed to dig deep against The Clones in order to finish them does not mean he could do the same against Vader, by which point he's even more exhausted - especially considering that he'd basically fully dissipated his energies (see the opening of my post for details).

Starkiller is a Force prodigy who, like other Force prodigies can use his unprecedented Force potential to outlast other Force users or perform incredible feats far beyond their conventional and applicable paygrade (Anakin and the theta storm is a great example). My point is that Starkiller used all his mind and power in the Force to pulverise the Salvation, then proceeded to do the same against his clones, then fought Vader without difficulty accessing his power. This is to be expected from someone with immense Force reserves to draw from.

Not being mentioned repeatedly =/= it not impacting him (as substantiated earlier). Moreover, I even specifically noted within the paragraph that an instance of Starkiller's exhaustion affecting him exists - even as early as after The Salvation feat - (link ), which you - for some reason - have chosen to ignore.

I don’t see how that’s evidence of exhaustion affecting him. That’s a very large object. When he pulls the ISD, he focuses for a long time to perform the feat; when he blows up the Salvation he does it out of love for Juno and the thought that he’d be dying in the blast, and he subsequently pulverised his clones. My point about him utilising his prodigious Force reserves remains.

Starkiller knows Vader's power level; he battled him with Force Lightning in the opening of the game (link ) and novel and watched as Vader attempted to pull back his TIE Fighter with Telekinesis. Vader's modifications to his fighting style (read: no increase in power) to help him deal with an entirely different opponent are irrelevant to Starkiller's opinion on how he'd fare against the army of Clones - he'd be "easily overpowered" by them, and consequently, "easily overpowered" by a full-strength Starkiller.

The fight between them in the Wii version involved Vader choking Starkiller, then Starkiller breaking it with lightning. Vader catches it on his lightsaber, and the blowback pushes his opponent back and into a broken grate. How is that an accurate gauge of Vader’s power level? If anything, this works against Starkiller, since Vader is able to get a grip on him and absorb his lightning with his lightsaber. In the novelisation, the same thing happens basically. Starkiller uses lightning in a surprise attack, specifically because Vader has a vulnerability to it. Although it initially hits the Dark Lord, he manages to catch it on his lightsaber. Neither of these iterations of their first conflict in the game/story proves that Starkiller knows Vader’s power level, only that he can defend against his lightning.

The TIE fighter argument is even more confusing. Unless Starkiller has specific knowledge of the gravitational constant of the planet, the thrust of the fighter and how Vader’s power is involved in the equation, all he knows is that Vader can’t prevent a TIE fighter going at a certain level of thrust from leaving the atmosphere of Kamino. That isn’t an accurate gauge of his power lol.

EXHAUSTION FAILS

Extreme situations can cause adrenaline rushes, and Force users on multiple occasions have demonstrated that they can perform just as well as their base - or even better despite being exhausted.

CAEDUS

Force users experience adrenaline rushes of power more potent than non-force sensitives. After having the tendons in his leg ripped, and a tunnel crushing his body, Jacen could still exert the rest of his Force energy - then continue to fight on:

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:They said that the human body was capable of extraordinary feats of strength when in extremis. For a Jedi, it was something else entirely.

Jacen Solo wasn't ready to die, not now, not so close to his ascendance, and not in a stinking drain like vermin.

He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up.

DOOKU

Dooku hits exhaustion in his duel against Anakin and Obi-Wan on the Invisible Hand, yet manages to rejuvenate himself and fight on:

Revenge of the Sith Novelisation wrote:He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him…

Briefly after, he uses "his last burst of dark power" to incapacitate Kenobi with a kick, following it up with another surge of energy to accelerate Kenobi's limp body. He then proceeds to take a boot to the face from Anakin and uses his "dark power" yet again to cushion his landing off the balcony, all while exhausted. Then, he washes the exhaustion away:

Revenge of the Sith Novelisation wrote:He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

QUI-GON

Despite being “exhausted” and losing his balance and focus, Qui-Gon with a few minutes respite gives the best duelling performance Obi-Wan has ever seen from him in ten years, which includes the duel on Tatooine:

A. Exhausted and off-balance:

The Phantom Menace Novelisation wrote:By the time Obi-Wan had recovered, Qui-Gon was in pursuit of Darth Maul, following him down the catwalk toward a small door at the far end of the power station. The Jedi Master went swiftly, legs and arms pumping, lightsaber flashing. He was worn and battered by now, close to exhaustion, but the Sith Lord was on the defensive at last, and he did not want to give him a chance to regroup.

Star Wars: Adventures #15 wrote:Be in the moment, Qui-Gon told himself.

The Sith Lord had shaken him. He would need to regain his balance.

Qui-Gon sat. Closing his eyes, he meditated and waited.

B. Obi-Wan never saw Qui-Gon fight harder than this

The Phantom Menace: Junior Novelisation wrote:The Sith Lord wasn't wearing a helmet; it was only the light of the laser walls on the black of his tattoo. And Qui-Gon was fighting more fiercely than Obi-Wan had ever seen him fight before.

C. Exhausted Qui-Gon with a few minutes respite > fresh Qui-Gon on Tatooine

TPM Script wrote:The electric rays cycle as QUI-GON sits meditating. The wall of the deadly rays turn away, and OBI-WAN starts running toward QUI-GON and the DARK LORD. When the wall between QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL opens, QUI-GON is in a split second fighting the DARK LORD with a ferocity not seen before.

The Phantom Menace Novelisation wrote:It appeared that the Jedi Master would. He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.

--- --- ---

Adrenaline bursts of power in extreme situations allows Force users to fight beyond their normal capabilities, and draw on reserves that they normally wouldn’t have. There is no reason why Starkiller couldn’t have been doing this as well, especially when everything is on the line, and he never expresses difficulty accessing power, even if he did feel exhausted.

Which leads to the crux of my argument, and what I’d like the readers and judges to consider: What HP is suggesting is that an exhausted Starkiller scales down to Vader's level rather than the exhaustion making an impact on his peak performance. The best examples of this are again Dooku and Qui-Gon. Dooku was able to maintain his gap between Kenobi both before and during his exhaustion ("Greydolling" Kenobi both times), we don't see Dooku's normal combative performance drastically weaken when he's exhausted, in fact, he keeps it up as Anakin is getting even stronger. A Qui-Gon fighting for several minutes, exhausted and off-balance, needed only a few minutes rest in order to fight more fiercely than he ever had in his life. The Caedus example proves that Force users can get adrenaline rushes of Force power, even if they have nothing left.

II. ONENESS

Uh, all your quote states is that the Lightning impacted on Galen's body; it doesn't comment on his defences either way. As for how we know he mitigated the Lightning's effects... how else would he have survived? Your proposition suggests his defences were entirely useless, but if that were the case how was he not incinerated? The most logical explanation - which explains this - is that he blocked enough of the Lightning's potency in order for the remainder to only cause him extreme pain which is supported by him being in a typical tutaminis posture and the Lightning actively being caught in his hands in the videogame.

Prove that the Emperor was trying to “incinerate” Starkiller. No source except the suggestion from Galen’s point of view states that the Emperor was going all-out. Let’s put what happened into its objective context. Only moments before, Sidious had been toying and manipulating Starkiller. According to the game script, “After a grueling fight, The Emperor appears beaten.” He then proceeds to manipulate Galen into giving in to his hatred by striking him down, feigning weakness. Consider that the Emperor does exactly the same to Luke in ROTJ. Once Starkiller refuses, the Emperor begins torturing Kota, at which point Starkiller stands in front of the lightning. It immediately tore through any tutaminis he had prepared and completely destroyed the nerve endings in his body. Once Starkiller steps towards his opponent and locks hands, the lightning naturally begins to engulf Sidious as well, who then “tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain." Lascivious by definition is an overt sexual display. So Sidious is just enjoying himself here.

So what does this show for Starkiller? It shows that he has incredible willpower, but clearly not enough to withstand the Emperor’s full potency. Why? Because the Emperor wasn’t going all-out. Not only was he in complete control of their lightsaber duel, pretending to lose in order to make Starkiller his apprentice, he sexually enjoys himself and tanks Starkiller, who in oneness “was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child.” So, Starkiller’s suicidal blast was so potent that it made his Star Destroyer feat look like that of a child, and Sidious tanks it with no injuries right in front of his face.

However, the most compelling evidence actually comes in the “Dark Side” ending for TFU1. Here, we see Sidious yet again totally in control of the situation. Starkiller opts to kill Vader rather than save Kota. However, after killing Vader he instantly regrets it "Faced with a critical choice, the secret apprentice faltered. Rather than save his friend Rahm Kota, he gave in to his hatred and destroyed his old master, Darth Vader. When he realized what he’d done, he regretted his decision." (TFU1 Wii Prima Guide). Thus, his subsequent attempt to kill the Emperor isn't based on hatred (the Dark Side). So this is still “Enlightened” Starkiller. He goes to attack Kota, then turns on the Emperor with his lightsaber. Per the game script, “The Emperor, expecting this, blocks it with his own.” Then this happens:



HP, if you disagree with this, perhaps you could answer this dilemma for me: if you contend that this Starkiller isn't "enlightened" Starkiller, you could at least agree that this iteration of him above is comparable to Vader. The suggestion then, is that Starkiller grows a ragdoll tier gap with his enlightenment, yet Vader can still react to his blows and they have a quite sizeable engagement after he realises he doesn't need hatred to win. So, how does that work?

---

Starkiller attempting to defend against the lightning =/= actually defending against it in a meaningful way.

A "moment of oneness"??? That's complete conjecture - your idea that this moment was a one-off is not substantiated by you or ever implied anywhere within the TFU source material (that I'm aware of). Galen explicitly only enters any kind of amped state after the Lightning Clash (when he blows up).

He’s not actually in oneness during that specific part, but he’s already seen what happens in the future.

The Force Unleashed Novelisation wrote:The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever.

[...]

This moment, the apprentice thought. I saw this!

--- --- ---

...you know, rather than just flaunting your rhetoric, you could actually make an argument. I agree that SK's ISD feat isn't combat applicable (though, I haven't mentioned it anywhere in this discussion, so that's irrelevant) in the sense that SK did the feat over a prolonged period of time (i.e. the energies were summoned over an extended duration - not instantaneously like in combat). However, Starkiller summons the energies necessary to atomise The Salvation and defend against Sidious's Lightning, within a second or so. These feats are clear, repeated instances of Starkiller instantly being able to summon such power within a combative scenario. Your dismissal to both them rests on citing a completely different character (Anakin) with no elaboration on how he and Starkiller are the same, and also citing a duel which happened after Starkiller had performed a gauntlet of incredibly taxing feats. The readers of this debate have no reason to buy your argument, and quite frankly, neither do I. To re-state from my opener: "Defaulting to 'all these feats are just inconsistent' is a cop-out, and you’ve provided absolutely no reason for why I should buy into the claim."

I’ve already addressed these points:

(1) The destruction of the Salvation was a suicidal attempt spurred on by the love of Juno;

(2) He defended against Sidious’ lightning to a limited extent, though we know from the DS ending that light side Starkiller is still just a pawn in the  Emperor’s game, and he’s instantly ragdolled when he outlives his usefulness to Sidious.

(3) Starkiller has immense Force reserves, so he can perform these incredible feats and outlast others that can’t match his deep reserves.

III. VADER

Addressed in my opener:

As Starwars.com states: “Star Wars Tales #9 sets out the answer the heated fan debate -- who's tougher: Darth Maul or Darth Vader?” No strings attached. The story is Infinities, and thus the setting is totally irrelevant to what the outcome is meant to represent. It’s not “the brawl to settle it all” and “the answer to the heated fan debate” if they’re just showing a weaker incarnation of Vader. The idea that it's ANH Vader is directly contradicted by SW.com stating it’s the answer to “who’s tougher: Darth Maul or Darth Vader?”. Since no other material except the actual non-continuity story makes mention of it being a lesser incarnation of Vader, and that Maul is represented as he was in TPM, it’s TPM Maul vs ROTJ Vader.

IV. QUI-GON

As you've conceded to, there's a sizeable gap between Jinn and Maul, and thus an even bigger one between Jinn and Starkiller.

I never conceded there’s a sizeable gap, only that Maul > Jinn. Touching briefly on your misleading points on the fight, Maul’s saberstaff gave him an advantage to fighting multiple opponents simultaneously (Link), and he committed the entire area to muscle memory before the fight, including planning out how to separate the two Jedi, since he ultimately couldn’t defeat them together (End Game; V&S).

Furthermore, lightsaber duels rarely last a minute, especially when Ataru/acrobatic maneuvers are used:

Star Wars: Darth Bane - Dynasty of Evil wrote:Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting - particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down. She, on the other hand, was barely winded. At Bane's urging, she had become an expert in the defensive sequences of the Soresu form. It was simple for her to parry, redirect, or evade her opponent's blows by using Set's own momentum against him, easily keeping the Dark Jedi at bay.

Qui-Gon and Maul were using these maneuvers on Tatooine according to the G-canon script:

TPM Script wrote:]QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL continue their sword battle. Leaping over one another in an incredible display of acrobatics, the two warriors hear the ship fly over them a few feet off the ground. QUI-GON almost disappears for a moment.

This isn’t contradicted on-screen since these could have happened off-screen. The duel itself lasts 40~ seconds in the movie, indicating that Maul and Qui-Gon are quite evenly matched until the last seconds of the duel. This is perhaps one of the most corroborated stances in the EU.

PRIMARY SOURCES:

Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Novelisation wrote:They could see Qui-Gon Jinn now, engaged in battle with the dark-garbed, demonic figure. The combatants surged back and forth across the flats, lightsabers flashing brightly with each blow struck, sand and grit swirling in all directions.

End Game wrote:Regardless, Qui-Gon had quieted his mind and brought his imposing might to bear against Maul’s agility. He had matched Maul’s furious strokes with a disciplined intensity all his own. In the midst of their no-quarter contest the Jedi had even managed to order the slave boy to flee for the safety of the waiting ship, where Maul had nearly forgotten all about him.

[...]

Then, just when Qui-Gon’s stamina was beginning to flag and the fight was tipping in Maul’s favor, the incomprehensible had occurred: Qui-Gon had fled.

[...]

Many a being had run from Maul, but never a worthy one.

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:As the boy ran for the Queen's ship. Maul lashed out at the Jedi again and again, but the Jedi blocked each blow. Maul was suddenly aware that the Jedi seemed to anticipate each lunge and jab, as if he knew how Maul would move before Maul himself knew. Maul drew from the dark side of the Force and began to move faster, increasing the speed of his lunges along with his footwork. The Jedi kept up with Maul, but Maul soon sensed...

He's getting tired.

Maul felt the pain in his leg become more intense. He became angry at himself for being wounded, used the anger to fuel the dark side, and directed his rage at the Jedi. Maul was certain he would defeat his opponent.

He will fall heavily, like a monument.

But the Jedi did not falter. As Maul spun and moved around the Jedi, he saw the Queen's starship lift off. He also saw the boarding ramp was still extended.

Maul leaped over the Jed, blocking his path to the rising ship, as their lightsabers continued to weave and smash into each other. The ship had just moved above their position when the Jedi leaped straight up and landed on the extended ramp, his lightsaber still blazing.

Darth Maul Journal wrote:If an opponent can read you, the fight is over. I don't like that the Jedi was perfectly prepared for my first blow. Within seconds, I throw away my usual combinations and strategies. This Jedi seems to know how I will move before I do.

[...]

But I must confess that this Jedi is a challenge. If I leap, he is with me. If I turn, he follows me. He meets my ferocity with his own. His lightsaber swirls and hums, and several times comes closer than I like.

[...]

Even through his fatigue, his blows still have power. He is a large man with impressive strength. He will fall heavily, like a monument.

SECONDARY SOURCES:

Star Wars: Giant Book to Color - Enemy of the Republic wrote:They cross lightsaber as they attack each other, trying to gain the upper hand.

The Phantom Menace Movie Storybook wrote:Outside, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul battled on. Energy crackled as their weapons clashed. They leapt over one another and twisted in the air, each trying to gain the advantage.

Star Wars: Darth Maul’s Revenge wrote:Maul battled the Jedi with a vengeance. He was surprised at the large man’s speed and skill.

[...]

Maul was pleased by this, yet he could not find an opening for a final blow. The Jedi was too good.

Qui-Gon and Maul are fighting back and forth, each trying to gain the upper hand, Jinn is matching Maul’s blows etc. This happened the whole 40 seconds as well, since “Then, just when Qui-Gon’s stamina was beginning to flag and the fight was tipping in Maul’s favor, the incomprehensible had occurred: Qui-Gon had fled.” So Maul only starts winning as Qui-Gon jumps up onto the ship. Correlating this with Zannah’s quote, we can deduce that Maul and Qui-Gon are close enough that it takes the greater part of a minute, with acrobatic maneuvers (which hasten the rate at which their reserves are used), for a decision to be reached, thus indicating that the two are quite close to each other, with Maul having the advantage. As previously cited, Maul was able to contend with both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan simultaneously due to a number of factors that don’t necessarily translate into how they’d fare against him in one-on-one combat.

Note also that this performance far outshines Vader’s in Resurrection. Maul is constantly placed on the defensive “the combatants surged back and forth” despite entering a “killing frenzy that promised no quarter.” Maul is so singularly focused on killing Qui-Gon that he completely forgets about Anakin. Compare this to his duel with Vader, where he’s constantly controlling the fight. He destroys the bridge before Vader can react, directs the duel back up out of the lava again, then proceeds to blitz Vader after having his saberstaff cut in half. He never wavers from his position of superiority, even when Vader does cut the saber in half - considering he was unable to capitalise on it in any way. Meanwhile:

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:Obi-Wan's lightsaber came up fast and swept through the pommel of Maul's weapon. One half of Maul's lightsaber shattered, leaving his left hand clutching what amounted to a still-functional single blade. Before he could react, Obi-Wan kicked him in the chest and he was sent sprawling onto his back near the edge of the core.

@Meatpants: Great post but the strawman thing hasn't been funny since Az did it tbh.

Why is about 1/10th of this post pictures of Scarecrow? This hasn't been funny for quite a long time. Good post, regardless.

You are both clowns mooching off Ants own retarded logic.

Hey @Meatpants pardon me for asking my good chap, but I remember reading the Prima Guide religiously and I also remember it cutting off at the choice of ending to prevent spoilers. Please provide a scan for this quote? Because I own the prima, and I assure you it is definitely fake

Vader's Legacy wrote:

Hey @Meatpants pardon me for asking my good chap, but I remember reading the Prima Guide religiously and I also remember it cutting off at the choice of ending to prevent spoilers. Please provide a scan for this quote? Because I own the prima, and I assure you it is definitely fake

It isn't fake. It's from the character bio section on DS Galen, IIRC.

NotAA3 wrote:

Vader's Legacy wrote:

Hey @Meatpants pardon me for asking my good chap, but I remember reading the Prima Guide religiously and I also remember it cutting off at the choice of ending to prevent spoilers. Please provide a scan for this quote? Because I own the prima, and I assure you it is definitely fake

It isn't fake. It's from the character bio section on DS Galen, IIRC.

post it

Meatpants

@Vader's Legacy



Meatpants did not forge the quote.

Azronger wrote:@Vader's Legacy



Meatpants did not forge the quote.

Where is that from? My prima doesn't have it, I have the wii and Xbox version and it specifically cuts off at the endings

@Vader's Legacy

Where is that from? My prima doesn't have it, I have the wii and Xbox version and it specifically cuts off at the endings

Did you pay any attention to what I just said? Yes, the game specifically cuts off at the endings as not to spoil them, so naturally, the quote isn't from anything regarding the story, as I specifically noted in my first reply to you: "It's from the character bio section on DS Galen, IIRC." I don't have access to the Prima Guide as of now, so I can't verify this - and can only say from my limited recollection - but I'm pretty sure that there's a character summary of DS Ending Galen somewhere and the quote is written there.

Nevermind, despite saying I don't have access to the Prima Guide as of now, I've managed to find an online PDF copy. You can find the quote on page 97 of the Wii Prima Guide.

NotAA3 wrote:Nevermind, despite saying I don't have access to the Prima Guide as of now, I've managed to find an online PDF copy. You can find the quote on page 97 of the Wii Prima Guide.

Ah, the multiplayer skins section. Fair point, and I retract my accusation, though meatpants did nothing for his reputation just not replying to serious accusations which leads me to conclude he has no idea where his quotes come from. Fucking pathetic

I lost my copy of the Prima. Was trying to find it before responding, though Azronger stepped in.

Vader's Legacy wrote:which leads me to conclude he has no idea where his quotes come from. Fucking pathetic

I literally cited where you could find the quote.

I also noticed that I left out two quotes that outright debunk Starkiller being able to replicate most of his environmental feats on any given day. Shame.

@Meatpants

Maul > Jinn > Vader >> TFU2 Vader ~ Starkiller.

https://youtu.be/Qp91xlsaKSo?t=172

Tl;dr Jinn dies.

1) Starkiller

A) Exhaustion

Where in my post did I say Starkiller was at full reserves, or that he wasn't weakened to an extent by his previous feats?

Where in my post did I say that you said that? I never once actually stated what you were arguing, because quite frankly, you didn’t make that at all clear. You just cited that Starkiller’s strength was coming back without any explanation on how this actually relates to his combative performance vs Vader, and I don’t see how I’m supposed to address that - given the lack of clarification - other than by pointing out that it’s an irrelevant variable because a full recovery would take days and SK only rested for a minute at most (which I did). Continuing from that, in your reply to me you’ve still completely failed to make the relevance of this variable clear - hell, you didn’t even mention it - and have utterly ignored my rebuttal to try and win a cheap point on strawmanning. For those that have forgotten:

I wrote:The fact that Starkiller regained some strength is not mutually exclusive with the idea that he's still highly weakened. The novel indicates that Starkiller basically unleashed the totality of his power when he destroyed The Salvation - with Starkiller fearing he might die in the process - and then the text further comments after his fight with the Starkiller Clones that he "felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned" indicating that his reserves were almost fully depleted. This is without even commenting on him being more exhausted than he was at the start of the novel. Recovery won't be a fast process - he's not about to regain all his reserves in about a minute or so - especially when it's stressed multiple times that food, rest, and meditation are required to get back up to full strength (specifically, several days of rest); Kenobi is still exhausted hours after his duel with Anakin on Mustafar; and Galen after re-directing an ISD, and frying The Core, in TFU 1 wasn't sure whether a week of sleep would bring him back to his peak. Any amount of power Galen did recover was presumably minuscule by comparison to the power he has when he's at his best.

Concession accepted, I guess?

--- --- ---

Where in my post did I present the idea that Starkiller wasn’t weakened by the test? I never said the pit didn't weaken Starkiller. You stated: "Starkiller was in a near-death state here", I was asking for the evidence that proves this fact.

You didn’t suggest Starkiller was not weakened, and I never claimed you did. Try actually reading the point you’re quoting: “All of the overwhelming evidence says Starkiller was highly weakened by his experience within the pit, and the idea that he wasn't seems wholly conjecture based and without a scrap of evidence to support it.” You apparently missed the qualifier preceding “weakened”, so let me make things clear for you: I was not claiming that you suggested Starkiller wasn’t “weakened by the test”, I was claiming that you suggested he was not “highly weakened” (an obvious reference to you arguing against the point that he was in a near-death state).

Instead, you've given me a bunch of points on why being placed in a pit and starved for a long period of time would have weakened Starkiller. Thanks! Nothing suggests he was "near-death".

I think you’ll find that all of my points suggest Starkiller was near-death...

How is running low on reserves mutually exclusive with being “near-death”? He could be at 10% or 20% reserves and still be on low reserves, yet not “near-death”. Where’s the evidence that he was about to die?

[...]

I'm not denying that Starkiller was being pushed here, and he's clearly conserving his energy as well as possible, but I'm still not seeing the connection between that and him being "near-death".

I’d say being deprived of every natural resource that your body needs to survive, and being low on the very thing that’s sustaining you in spite of that, would qualify as “near-death”, but maybe that’s just me?

No, all that proves is that Vader is testing Starkiller's limits. There’s no evidence that Vader is ensuring Starkiller is on the literal brink of death every time he goes through the test.

Erm...

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:He would endure and emerge whole, or never emerge at all. Such was the life of Darth Vader’s secret apprentice.

[...]

Here it was that he would live and grow strong, or die weak and unmourned.

Starkiller repeatedly acknowledges the idea that he could die in these tests, which wouldn't make sense if Vader didn't push him anywhere close to death. It's literally stated that the test's function was to make it so that he'd “never emerge at all” // “die weak and unmourned” or “emerge whole” // “live and grow strong”. Vader is like any Sith Master - he pushes his pupil to his limits in order to forge him into a worthy apprentice.

Since when have these descriptors been synonymous with being on the brink of death? The descriptors still apply if he’s low on reserves, yet not close to death.

All of the descriptors emphasise Starkiller is on the verge of failure - and to fail would mean death - so, yes, I’d say they’re synonymous with “near-death”. Especially when the very next line - following from these descriptors - is: “He would endure and emerge whole, or never emerge at all.”

He's talking about his enemies during this test. They weren't physical, but mental. This isn't saying Starkiller is "near-death".

See above; and not all of the descriptors were mental - “fallible body” isn’t a mental failing, but rather, a physical one.

--- --- ---

Yet again, I never stated he wasn't hindered or exhausted, nor is that my ulterior motive.

Lol:

There’s also no other subsequent mention of his exhaustion except for a moment where he notes his heart is pounding (and that’s during a break in the fighting). It’s hard to imagine that someone who’s so exhausted would continue fighting seemingly without issue in a prolonged duel.

You explicitly contested the notion that SK’s exhaustion is a relevant factor; because “there’s no other subsequent mention of his exhaustion” and "(he) demonstrates no difficulty whatsoever accessing his power and fighting Vader" // "(he's) fighting seemingly without issue in a prolonged duel". How does commenting that he’s fighting without issue, mean you’re not disagreeing with the notion that he’s hindered? Hindered - by definition (“make it difficult for (someone) to do something” - Source: Google) - would suggest that his exhaustion makes fighting Vader difficult for him...

Again, you’re trying to earn a cheap win by calling me out for a supposed strawmann - which isn’t really a strawmann - while dancing around my actual arguments. Your above point is directly refuted by my last post: "That doesn't preclude him from still being exhausted/hindered - his exhaustion is explicitly shown in his inferior performance in this fight compared to other instances. Sean Williams generally has a habit of not repeatedly acknowledging debilitating circumstances in fights. [...] Constant commentary is not needed in order for us to know things - we can make reasonable inferences about the effect of certain factors on a character's combative performance without it."

--- --- ---

Now, let's think about this for a second:

-You have conceded Starkiller recovering his strength is an irrelevant variable.

-You have also conceded Starkiller was low on Force Reserves.

-You have also conceded that Starkiller’s exhaustion not being repeatedly mentioned is irrelevant and doesn’t necessitate it wasn’t hindering him.

...so what exactly are you trying to achieve here? None of your argument has anything to do with the points you made last post: it's all contingent on a new argument you've made in this one which I'll cover below.

B) Other Examples

Adrenaline bursts of power in extreme situations allows Force users to fight beyond their normal capabilities, and draw on reserves that they normally wouldn’t have. There is no reason why Starkiller couldn’t have been doing this as well, especially when everything is on the line, and he never expresses difficulty accessing power, even if he did feel exhausted.

Which leads to the crux of my argument, and what I’d like the readers and judges to consider: What HP is suggesting is that an exhausted Starkiller scales down to Vader's level rather than the exhaustion making an impact on his peak performance.

What I am suggesting aligns with the example I listed in my last post regarding Vestara Khai and Olaris Rhea (which you completely ignored) - a character when weakened enough can drop multiple tiers - as Luke certainly scaled down to the duo’s level, meaning it's totally plausible Starkiller can do the same. The premise of your rebuttal to this (i.e. that Force Users can receive adrenaline bursts of power in extreme scenarios) by itself isn't necessarily something I disagree with, but I do, however, find it unwarranted to apply to Starkiller considering the extent of his weakness and the examples having different contexts, as I'll cover below:

CAEDUS: Fighting through injuries due to an adrenaline burst of power isn't the same as fighting through being low on Force Reserves; why you would draw a comparison between the two is beyond me. The point that's made in the passage is that humans can fight through extreme circumstances, and obviously Jedi - with their augmentation - can do this to a greater degree, but given that the passage mentions humans it should be clear that Force related processes are not included under "extremes" and it wouldn't even make sense for them to be. Force Reserves running low isn't like any other debilitating circumstances which just physically affects you but can be compensated for with a rush; Force Reserves are the source of your power, so when you run low on them you have virtually nothing to draw upon to fuel that power, ergo the power itself becomes substantially weakened - which is perfectly logical. You can't have a "rush" if there's barely any power to call on, can you?

QUI-GON JINN: Jinn isn’t actually stated to be “exhausted”, but rather “close” to it. There’s a notable distinction here, which shows that Jinn is nowhere near in a similar state of exhaustion to Starkiller - who’s low on reserves - and, unlike Starkiller, he had a multi-minute uninterrupted meditation trance to attempt to recover with prior to fighting. Now, despite all of this in his favour, his performance actually still indicates the opposite of what you're arguing. Jinn pours basically everything he had into a last-ditch attempt to overwhelm Maul, sure, but the performance doesn't last for particularly long - and this is a not yet exhausted Jinn, too. He begins to run dry on Reserves after about 15 seconds, and, as soon that happens, his fatigue kicks in causing him to be forced back then subsequently killed; substantiating my idea that Force Users gas out when running low on Reserves and it can't be compensated for. But, somehow, you expect Starkiller who's mega low on Force Reserves to keep up his standard combative performance across a several minute long Lightsaber duel (the duel is filled with dialogue and extensive back and forth fighting)? Again, press X to doubt.

The Phantom Menace Novelization wrote:Qui-Gon was on him in an instant, covering the distance separating them in a rush, hammering into the Sith Lord anew. But he was beginning to weary now from carrying the battle alone. His strokes were not so vigorous as before his face bathed with sweat and taut with fatigue.

Slowly, Darth Maul began to edge his way back into the fight, becoming the aggressor once more.

Hurry! Obi-Wan hissed soundlessly, willing the lasers to pause and the gates to come down.

Stroke for stroke, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul battled about the rim of the melting pit, locked in a combat that seemed endless and forever and could be won by neither.

Then the Sith Lord parried a downstroke, whirled swiftly to the right, and with his back to the Jedi Master, made a blind, reverse lunge. Too late, Qui-Gon recognized the danger. The blade of the Sith Lord's lightsaber caught him directly in the midsection, its brilliant length burning through clothing and flesh and bone.

COUNT DOOKU: None of what you posted actually shows Dooku kept up his baseline performance when exhausted. Taking out Kenobi (the feat you use to compare exhausted Dooku and Base Dooku) prior to his exhaustion took “the slightest whipcrack” of his power meaning that even if Dooku did replicate it, it wouldn't be indicative of his exhaustion not majorly hindering him; it would just mean exhausted Dooku scales to Dooku's casual feats, not his standard combative baseline. To bring up the Rhea/Luke example again, it's like saying Luke wasn't incredibly weak against Olaris Rhea and Vestara Khai, because he defeated them which he would also do at peak - the difficulty needs to be considered. In fact, Dooku's feat took a lot more effort the second time; he accomplised it with a “last burst of power” - i.e. a sudden increase in his power level via throwing in a decent quantity of his reserves at once (as opposed to the whipcrack of it he used earlier). And as a final point - that serves as a continuation of the previous one - the exertion was accomplished over the course of, like, a second via a meaning that even if the feat was him keeping up his standard combative prowess, it was not done over a great length of time (which you're arguing Starkiller was doing), and it was only kept up by throwing a solid chunk of reserves out all at once (of which Starkiller has little, so if he tried that against Vader he'd probably gas out). As for this:

Then, he washes the exhaustion away:

The quote is referring to physical fatigue (i.e. "weight of his years") so defer to my rebuttal to the Caedus example.

C) Full Power

All the sources are here. The clone has all the skills and powers of the original, was taught new skills by Vader per the novelisation and has even more Force powers at his disposal.

Seeing also that you used Nick Gillard’s comments from an email outside published material, I may also use “author” comments as evidence, in which case, Sam Witwer in Insider says Starkiller is more combatively lethal than he ever was, even despite his emotional conflict.

I wouldn't consider Gillard clarifying a placement on a tier system he developed with Lucas as a typical author quote, but that aside, none of this actually proves anything. The context of the "knew the measure" statement was, specifically, combat with Vader, so him knowing a greater quantity of Force Powers which make him a deadlier combatant, in general, is irrelevant - as these powers presumably can't be applied on Vader due to his comparable power to exhausted Starkiller (meaning he can get an accurate gauge of SK solely based on TFU), and indeed, Starkiller doesn't utilise any of them in the duel. I explicitly asked for proof SK was more powerful (your original claim: "Starkiller is now more powerful than he was during the last duel."), and you've failed to provide it - that's a concession.

Moreover, you've still not offered an alternative explanation for what "knew the measure" should actually mean, other than knowing the extent of the opponent's capabilities. That is - by definition - what the phrase means (link): "to understand what someone is really like so that you can decide how to deal with them or defeat them."

The duels are directly contrasted, so a non-exhausted Starkiller should definitely be able to stomp TFU 2 Vader.

Lol, I never said that. If I’m correct, you may be referring to the TFU1 fight, in which case I have no space to go into it.

Yet another strawmann allegation lauded against me, and, once again, I shall deny it. I never said that you directly stated Vader can stomp his TFU 1 self, but that doesn't stop it from being a ramification of your argument (which it is).

I refer readers to my first post on this page; it details why Starkiller’s telekinetic domination of Vader happened only after Vader had suffered a serious of deep cuts and lacked the strength to keep his lightsaber steady.

Did you forget about the Lightsaber portion of the fight? As I said in my first post: "In the finale of The Force Unleashed - after Starkiller proclaims to Vader, 'I don’t need to hate you in order to beat you.' - he completely destroys him in combat, 'forcing him on the back foot' almost immediately, and striking him repeatedly in a short period of time." None of my argument is contingent on the Telekinetic domination, and given that both fights were Lightsaber duels first and foremost, you wouldn't expect it to be. As I said, Vader's just as strong in both novels, so why isn't he also getting stomped in sabers in TFU 2? There's obviously a reason, and I'm providing it.

Regarding Vader's injuries, they're never stated to hinder him by the text (his Lightsaber shaking doesn't indicate a lack of Force ability), and we've repeatedly seen injuries amplify the abilities of Dark Side users. In fact, per your own posts, "Adrenaline bursts of power in extreme situations allows Force users to fight beyond their normal capabilities, and draw on reserves that they normally wouldn’t have.", yet apparently Vader couldn't have had one of these "bursts of power" due to his "extreme situation", but Starkiller could??? This argument seems to be a bit of a double standard, don't you think?

There’s no blitz gap.

It's a good thing I never argued for one then.

--- --- ---

The Salvation feat was done as a last-ditch attempt out of love for Juno.

A suicidal blast (from his POV) motivated by the love of Juno isn’t a combat applicable feat in a neutral setting on neutral ground.

Why does it being a suicide blast done out of love for Juno make it not combat applicable?

Juno is a consistent external motivator for Starkiller in TFU and TFU 2. Almost everything he does is due to love for her (hell, TFU 2's entire plot is about her), and the thought of her can give him strength in any context, not just when her life is on the line, as is revealed in the below quote (and shown in examples like the ISD feat). This is not a unique circumstance for this feat.

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:On Raxus Prime, when he had tried to call on the naive audacity of the boy he had once been to bring down the Star Destroyer, nothing had stirred in him. No memories, no buried personalities, no hidden strength. He had worried at that fact ever since, wondering if his vision on Kashyyyk had been mistaken after all, or if Galen had been so thoroughly erased that no vestige of him remained.

But now he understood. When he had turned to Juno at the base of the cliff and told her his name, it had been him telling her, not the ghost of his former self. Galen had ignored his summons on Raxus Prime because he was already there. He had possessed the strength to do what he needed to do. He always had. It was Galen as much as Darth Vader's apprentice who had invoked the thought of Juno to make him strong. They were one and the same person.

He still couldn't think of himself that way. He had been nothing but an apprentice for all his conscious life. It might be years before he was completely free of his Master's taint, if he survived that long...

As for the blast being suicidal, while he's obviously not going to pour out all his reserves at once in most fights, that doesn't mean the feat is worthless and has no combat applicable value. Remember that the comparison here is specifically regarding both character's upper limits, and Starkiller's is way higher meaning he's far more powerful.

Regardless, my argument isn't contingent on this feat in any way.

I don’t see how that’s evidence of exhaustion affecting him. That’s a very large object. When he pulls the ISD, he focuses for a long time to perform the feat; when he blows up the Salvation he does it out of love for Juno and the thought that he’d be dying in the blast, and he subsequently pulverised his clones.

He also focuses/exerts himself for a decent period when performing that feat, and it's absolutely nothing compared to his peak showings, yet he's clearly straining to a great degree. I don't see how it is anything other than proof of his exhaustion affecting him.

The fight between them in the Wii version involved Vader choking Starkiller, then Starkiller breaking it with lightning. Vader catches it on his lightsaber, and the blowback pushes his opponent back and into a broken grate. How is that an accurate gauge of Vader’s power level? If anything, this works against Starkiller, since Vader is able to get a grip on him and absorb his lightning with his lightsaber. In the novelisation, the same thing happens basically. Starkiller uses lightning in a surprise attack, specifically because Vader has a vulnerability to it. Although it initially hits the Dark Lord, he manages to catch it on his lightsaber. Neither of these iterations of their first conflict in the game/story proves that Starkiller knows Vader’s power level, only that he can defend against his lightning.

The TIE fighter argument is even more confusing. Unless Starkiller has specific knowledge of the gravitational constant of the planet, the thrust of the fighter and how Vader’s power is involved in the equation, all he knows is that Vader can’t prevent a TIE fighter going at a certain level of thrust from leaving the atmosphere of Kamino. That isn’t an accurate gauge of his power lol.

Cool story, bro. Anyway, did you forget Force Users can sense each other's power level? Yes, they can, shocking isn't it? And guess what? Vader exerts himself when blocking the Lightning, administering the Force Choke, and attempting to pull back the TIE fighter meaning Starkiller's senses should have an accurate read of his power; which is precisely the reason I cited the feats. Perhaps I should have made the point about sensing more clear, but I thought it was intuitively obvious. I guess not, though?

Side point: In regards to a more intent-based argument, Starkiller - when fighting The Clones - never seems to consider the idea that he doesn't have a precise measure of Vader's capabilities - which you'd expect he'd do if he didn't - and the passage itself doesn't read as if Galen is totally wrong. In fact, the idea that the Clones have been twisted against Starkiller when they could easily beat Vader being used as a narrative point to convey a message which would be undermined if Starkiller was actually wrong.

--- --- ---

Prove that the Emperor was trying to “incinerate” Starkiller. No source except the suggestion from Galen’s point of view states that the Emperor was going all-out. Let’s put what happened into its objective context. Only moments before, Sidious had been toying and manipulating Starkiller. According to the game script, “After a grueling fight, The Emperor appears beaten.” He then proceeds to manipulate Galen into giving in to his hatred by striking him down, feigning weakness. Consider that the Emperor does exactly the same to Luke in ROTJ.

The irony is the "context" you cite is anything but objective and is refuted by the very example you list at the end of this paragraph. Yes, The Emperor's original intent was to turn Galen to the Dark Side - as is made blatantly clear in the game, script, novel, etc - like with Luke in ROTJ. However, also like with Luke in ROTJ, Galen rejected The Emperor's attempts to turn him; which, when Luke did so, resulted in torture at The Emperor's hands. Why wouldn't Sidious try his hardest to get revenge on Starkiller, too?

Return of the Jedi wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sf_o-QhYn0

Furthermore, Galen's not only rejecting Sidious's offer to give in to his anger, he's also stopping Sidious from enacting his revenge on the rebels, and walking towards Sidious - placing him in a state of "desperation". Sidious has plenty of reason to be going all out by this point, and no source supports your groundless fan theory that he was not, whereas my argument is supported by statements in TFU's novelization, yet you have the audacity to say it's me that has to provide proof? Give me a break...

It immediately tore through any tutaminis he had prepared and completely destroyed the nerve endings in his body.

This point doesn't address anything I've proposed in our debate. Starkiller obviously isn't wholly defending against the Lightning sure, but he's mitigating it's lethality, etc, which is certainly a feat well beyond Jinn/Maul/Vader.

Once Starkiller steps towards his opponent and locks hands, the lightning naturally begins to engulf Sidious as well, who then “tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain." Lascivious by definition is an overt sexual display. So Sidious is just enjoying himself here.

Sidious enjoyed himself against Yoda plenty of times, yet you wouldn't say he was holding back there, as we know Yoda is "as powerful" as him (Source: Mysteries of the Jedi).

Revenge of the Sith wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JV2x3p_Qn8

This doesn't prove Sidious was holding back when we quite clearly know that he was fuelled by his "desperation".

He tanks Starkiller, who in oneness “was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child.” So, Starkiller’s suicidal blast was so potent that it made his Star Destroyer feat look like that of a child, and Sidious tanks it with no injuries right in front of his face.

The energy from the blast spread out in all directions, and Sidious only took the small percentage that actually hit his body.

The Force Unleashed wrote:https://youtu.be/Y3T2Z-1spT8?t=65

The potency of the energy that hit Sidious is totally unquantifiable, and I'm not going to assume the feat means Galen can't take Sidious's full power - so Sidious must have been holding back - without reasonable proof.

However, the most compelling evidence actually comes in the “Dark Side” ending for TFU1. Here, we see Sidious yet again totally in control of the situation. Starkiller opts to kill Vader rather than save Kota. However, after killing Vader he instantly regrets it "Faced with a critical choice, the secret apprentice faltered. Rather than save his friend Rahm Kota, he gave in to his hatred and destroyed his old master, Darth Vader. When he realized what he’d done, he regretted his decision." (TFU1 Wii Prima Guide). Thus, his subsequent attempt to kill the Emperor isn't based on hatred (the Dark Side). So this is still “Enlightened” Starkiller. He goes to attack Kota, then turns on the Emperor with his lightsaber. Per the game script, “The Emperor, expecting this, blocks it with his own.” Then this happens:

That's a major leap... Galen regrets his choice to leave Kota at the mercy of The Emperor to his revenge on Vader, but that doesn't mean he's cleansed of all hatred, nor does it mean he regretted the action of getting revenge by itself (just the fact that he had to leave Kota to do so). He's visibly seething when he attacks Sidious (hell, LS Galen literally chooses to spare Sidious because of where it may leave him, yet here is this Galen trying to stab Sidious in the back - they clearly have a different mentality) who is actively goading him, and we've seen him admit that anger clouds his vision and is inferior to the pristine clarity he'd have in the LS ending - meaning he's demonstrably not operating at peak levels.

The Force Unleashed wrote:https://youtu.be/Y3T2Z-1spT8

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.

Now, let's put aside the points on Galen's negative mindset for a minute, and also analyse what actually happens in the gif. Does the gif actually show Sidious could have overpowered Galen's active defences/stomped him whenever he wanted in the LS ending? No, it doesn't. In the gif, Sidious explicitly follows up an opening provided by the bladelock - he pushes Galen back and follows up with a Force Lightning blast which further allows him to throw Galen around with TK. None of this has anything to do with a massive Power gap, but rather a massive gap in Mastery/Lightsaber abilities (which should be obvious anyway). The Force Lightning has no discernably different effect than Dooku's does on Anakin in TCW S4 - both blasts cause Dooku/Sidious's opponents extreme pain and allow Dooku/Sidious to follow up with TK - and Anakin highly pressures Dooku in that fight, meaning it doesn't necessitate a massive power disparity. What you're arguing is akin to saying Sidious was holding back against Mother Talzin in their Force Clash during Son of Dathomir, because he didn't stomp her, yet a few pages prior disarmed her in a single panel when they had a Lightsaber duel (even though her lack of skill is commented on). The conclusion just doesn't follow from the premise.

The Clone Wars S4 wrote:https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=162

Spoiler:

HP, if you disagree with this, perhaps you could answer this dilemma for me: if you contend that this Starkiller isn't "enlightened" Starkiller, you could at least agree that this iteration of him above is comparable to Vader. The suggestion then, is that Starkiller grows a ragdoll tier gap with his enlightenment, yet Vader can still react to his blows and they have a quite sizeable engagement after he realises he doesn't need hatred to win. So, how does that work?

I can agree the iteration above is at least comparable to Vader, yes, but it doesn't make a difference to my argument, because of the above explanation (i.e. Sidious is far more masterful not necessarily far more powerful).

He’s not actually in oneness during that specific part, but he’s already seen what happens in the future.

I'm not seeing how this proves the feat was a one-off, as the point has absolutely no elaboration. What relevance does him seeing the future have exactly?

2) Darth Vader

As Starwars.com states: “Star Wars Tales #9 sets out the answer the heated fan debate -- who's tougher: Darth Maul or Darth Vader?” No strings attached. The story is Infinities, and thus the setting is totally irrelevant to what the outcome is meant to represent.

It being Non-Canon doesn't mean the setting automatically becomes obsolete - you've provided absolutely no reasoning to back up that claim. The entire framework of the story - and its answer to the question - is built around the setting, for Christ Sake. How many viewers read the comic for the answer and come to the conclusion that it's ROTJ Vader being considered, even though the whole comic is set around the time period of ANH? Certainly no one outside of this board. Fans inherently read the comic for answers, and you're arguing that it's being deliberately misleading by depicting a version of Vader who is in actuality inferior to Maul managing to best him, all while hiding this secret, never-stated premise that it's really ROTJ Vader. I hope you realise why I don't take this argument seriously.

It’s not “the brawl to settle it all” and “the answer to the heated fan debate” if they’re just showing a weaker incarnation of Vader. The idea that it's ANH Vader is directly contradicted by SW.com stating it’s the answer to “who’s tougher: Darth Maul or Darth Vader?”.

Addressed in my opener: "The fact that this is 'the answer' to the fan debate does not contradict this (i.e. the idea that it's ANH Vader); it can still answer the fan debate even if this is ANH Vader, as Vader winning the fight and subsequently becoming 'far more formidable' indicates he’d win with greater ease as of ROTJ."

Since no other material except the actual non-continuity story makes mention of it being a lesser incarnation of Vader, and that Maul is represented as he was in TPM, it’s TPM Maul vs ROTJ Vader.

And Vader is represented as he was in ANH... where's the distinction? As I said last post, the reasoning your using (i.e. defaulting to prime, because the setting is N-Canon) ultimately leads to this being ROTJ Vader vs TCW Maul; which I know you don't agree with.

3) Darth Maul

I don't have the characters to go into the specifics of the dynamic between Vader/Jinn/Maul - because I've used all of them on Starkiller/Vader stuff - but note that none of my argument is contingent on a sizeable gap between Maul and Jinn, nor Vader performing better than Jinn against Maul - at least in regards to their respective Lightsaber Skills (Vader obviously does better in the long run via winning the fight due to his self-hatred/determination and durability) - as I clarified last post: "The point isn't necessarily that Vader is > Maul in duelling - he wins through other factors - or that he performed better than Jinn; it's more that Vader competes much more closely with Maul than all indicators suggest he would against Starkiller, so Starkiller is >> Maul, and therefore >>>> Jinn."

4) Conclusion

Starkiller wins.

As requested by Meatpants and consented to by HP. I am judging this debate. Though, this won't go extensively into each point like you would see from a Cheth judgement.

HP managed to convincingly argue Starkiller's exhaustion, the fact Resurrection pits ANH Vader as opposed to ROTJ Vader as well as the point regarding Starkiller withstanding the Emperor's power better than any other point raised here. Thus he managed to argue the structural integrity of his scaling chain better than Meatpants. Thus, despite how impressively Meatpants managed to argue his points. I cast my favor towards HP.

I won't go as in depth here as I usually do as both debaters are good enough to see what they did well or poorly on their own, but if you want to discuss my judgement feel free to pm me (preferably on discord).

I don't want to sound exactly like LadyKulvax, but I overall had the same thoughts. While Meatpants had some points on Starkiller's exhaustion, I can't say I'm convinced Starkiller was operating at peak performance against Vader. I also was not convinced that Ressurection uses ROTJ Vader, which undermines Meatpants' main scaling chain. When speaking of the Palpatine fight, I find myself more on edge, but would still favour HP. While Jinn > Vader still stands to some degree, I don't see any clear connection to SK in which Jinn comes out favourable. So I also vote for HP