The Truth: Meetra Surik vs Darth Nyriss

Consistently over a few recent threads, I've seen time and again the use of the duel between the Jedi Exile and Darth Nyriss as a major link in a scaling chain for Revan Reborn.

I find this incredibly disingenuous, as it completely lacks any context and does not actually work. First of all, the claim completely ignores the fact that Meetra Surik when fighting Darth Traya actually overcame the hinderances surrounding the battle which was exactly the reason for why she won against Traya:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"Now we shall see if you can overcome the weight of Malachor,"

Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan wrote:...surviving the trauma of Malachor V had given her the strength to defeat Darth Traya and her followers.

The same cannot be said for Meetra on Dromund Kaas, though. I'll explain the severity of the effects on her psyché and why it's important. Malachor V, as I explained above, was literally the defining turning point of her power in the Force. The effects Malachor V had on her, lasted well over a decade:

Moza & Chodo Habat, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"Forgive me, Chodo, but the human - I could feel her suffering. I did not feel it until she stood before us, but then it filled my senses. Have you ever felt such an intensity before?"

"Only once before. The day I came to Telos and strode upon its ashen surface. It is a planet's worth of pain."

"I do not know how she endures."

"It is because she has no choice. Perhaps in helping to heal a planet, it will help her become whole again."

Visas Marr, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"I wish to learn how it is she still walks when her spirit is nothing more than a shell... when you feel as though the Force, as if life itself, has abandoned you."

Yet, the Void of Annihilation that was Nathema was far worse on her mentally than Malachor V, and would've literally drove her insane if she remained too long:

Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan wrote:She had visited Malachor V years after the cataclysm of the mass-shadow generator. Traversing its surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her life … until now.

On Malachor she’d felt the echoes of unimaginable pain and suffering—but at least she’d felt something. Here on Nathema, there was only a cold emptiness. It was unnatural; abhorrent. On Malachor she had felt the echo of great destruction; here there was only the unbearable void of annihilation.

Her body reacted with a revulsion so strong she felt physically ill. Her mind briefly tried to imagine what had happened to cause such an abomination, then recoiled from the answers. Her mind went blank and her body numb.

She stood motionless for several minutes, or maybe it was several hours; time had no meaning here. But the incessant squawking of T3 eventually roused her from her stupor.

Drawing on the mental focusing techniques she had learned as a Padawan, she forced herself to concentrate on something—anything—besides the inescapable nonpresence of the Force.

...

The entire process took less than five minutes, but for Meetra it might as well have been an eternity. She had managed to keep busy up until this point, but while waiting idly by for T3 to finish she began to notice the absence of the Force once more.

She could feel the Void pressing in on her from all sides. At the same time it was pulling on her, trying to rip away the very essence of her existence. Nature abhors a vacuum; the emptiness was trying to fill itself with her energy. For an instant she felt as if she were going to become undone, her physical body discorporating into trillions of subatomic particles that would scatter across the entire surface of Nathema.

No! she screamed in her mind. The Void will not take me! I am more than just a collection of random matter and particles! I am a living being. I am Meetra Surik!

The affirmation of her own existence seemed to push the Void back, at least for the moment. But Meetra knew she couldn’t hold out against it much longer. As much as she tried to ignore what she felt—or, more precisely, didn’t feel—all around her, she knew it was only a matter of time until the horrors of Nathema stripped away her sanity.

The effects of Malachor V on her psyché took over a decade and very specific therapeutic efforts to heal, the Void of Annihilation was far worse than that and there is literally no reason to believe that it instantly stopped bothering her. Meetra spent the immediate days after Nathema studying the world's history for 96 hours straight, with only her Force reserves to sustain her:

Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan wrote:For several days she pored through the archives, stopping neither to eat nor to sleep, taking a quick meditation break every few hours to replenish her fading stores of energy and mental focus.

Upon arriving at Dromund Kaas, she was enveloped by "the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet.” and this effected her ability to even meditate on the planet:

Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan wrote:She had opened herself up to the Force, looking for guidance and wisdom, but here on Dromund Kaas, where the dark side prevailed, it was difficult to find the inner tranquility necessary to find enlightenment.

This makes sense as a far less potent, abandoned iteration of Dromund Kaas around 4,000 years later had effects this great:

Fate of the Jedi wrote:"We need to watch one another closely. If Master Katarn could be swayed, then any of us could. Not just Vestara.”
...
Luke stood for a moment, his eyes and other senses searching the landscape. “Anyone sense anything?”
Ben extended himself in the Force, both opening himself to the vile sensation of the dark side and utilizing his senses—even smell, temporarily at least—to gather what information he could.
“Other than the obvious, which is a metric ton of dark-side energy, I can’t sense anything,” Jaina said.
...
“It’s…so strong,” Vestara breathed. Ben glanced over at her. Her brown eyes were wide, and her voice was a mixture of horror and attraction.
“Vestara,” Luke said, sharply but not angrily, and she blinked as if coming out of a daze. “Do you sense any signs of the Sith or Abeloth?”
She shook her head, looking more like her usual alert self. “No. That nexus pretty much drowns out anything else.”
...
Luke and Jaina were fighting back-to-back. The Sith attacking them had two advantages. One was the fact that they outnumbered the two Jedi. The second was that they were being reinforced by the emanations of the dark-side nexus within the temple. It surged forth like psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi’s reflexes as it fueled their enemies.
...
“I don’t think you did,” Luke replied. “They probably assumed we’d do exactly what we have been doing—investigating planets traditionally associated with Sith history. Khai probably chose this place because of the nexus. They could send a smaller team and still be stronger.”

Dromund Kaas was a monstrously powerful dark side world, made that way by rituals performed by the Emperor who expended much to make it so powerful:

Star Wars The Old Republic Holonet wrote:Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm.

So her ability to recover from the trauma and nigh-sanity rendering effects suffered by her on Nathema only a week prior are effectively nil.

Against Nyriss herself though, the fight isn't anywhere near as one-sided as is claimed. Meetra was not 'beaten in the time it took Scourge to get up'.

[1]Meetra and Scourge put themselves on the back foot to dodge Nyriss' lightning [2]who attacked them with her lightsaber before they could recover, [3]neutralising Scourge before focusing down Meetra [4]who holds her own in skill but loses out in literal physical strength. [5]Meetra rises after Scourge's interruption and successfully absorbs the majority of Nyriss' Force lightning attack with only a last-second Force barrier*:

Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan wrote:[1]She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.

****

[2]Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive.

****

[3]Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra’s defenses. [4]The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.

****

[5]Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.

*Meetra only used a Force barrier, which isn't supposed to even counter Force lightning hence the Tutaminis technique but is forced into utilising a last resort power.

Suffice to say, Revan getting up as Nyriss is in the middle of charging her Force lightning storm attack and having the time to mount a sufficient Tutaminis defense simply is not the same context. Meetra was not in the same situation as him and was recovering from being electrocuted by the remains of Nyriss' lightning attack hence not immediately recovering.

Finally, the narrative of Revan >> Nyriss >> Meetra is massively contradicted immediately afterwards by none other than Revan himself and his nemesis:

Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan wrote:In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

This is partially because, for the first time, Meetra was capable of both recovering and gathering her strength after the Nyriss duel due to Revan's presence:

Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan wrote:Meetra had gone into what he liked to call her warrior's trance; she sat still and straight, her eyes focused on nothing as she stared straight ahead.
He had seen it many times during the war against the Mandolarians. Before each major battle she would try to center her emotions, cleansing herself of all fear and hatred lest the imminent heat of battle draw her towards the dark side.
She believed she could transform herself into a perfect conduit for the Force, an incorruptible weapon of light.

Something remarked upon by Lord Scourge of all people:

Lord Scourge, Star Wars The Old Republic wrote:"The Exile was harder to read. Even with all she had done, she did not trust herself. With Revan, she was his student again."

She proves this with her performance, wherein this occurs:

Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan wrote:In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild sidearm throw, guiding it with the Force so that it spiraled end-over-end to intercept the descending blade, knocking it from the Emperor's grasp and sending it skittering across the floor.

She managed to successfully throw her lightsaber across a throneroom; which Revan earlier deemed too long for him to cross in time to interrupt the Emperor's charging Force lightning storm, faster than the Emperor could complete the swing of a blade to kill Revan. Something that the Emperor took very seriously:

Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan wrote:Meetra was still rushing forward, using the Force to return her lightsaber to her waiting hand. Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.

If the claim of Revan >> Nyriss >> Meetra was indeed true, the above should've been next to impossible. The Emperor is above Revan, thus he should be capable of swatting Meetra away casually. But he doesn't, she's able to react to his level of augmentative speed and save Revan, and he takes her as a serious threat right afterwards.

There's also the fact that Meetra successfully resisted the Emperor's passive corruptive influence:

The Emperor's Fallen Jedi Codex Entry wrote:His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

Hero of Tython, Star Wars The Old Republic wrote:"Revan, the Exile and I were all Jedi-trained. We all resisted the Emperor. What Sith have done so?"

The power of which does this to numerous Dark Councils:

Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:For generations, the Emperor would remain withdrawn from society. When he finally appeared, the Emperor spoke only to the Dark Council, reducing the most powerful Sith in the Empire to trembling sycophants in his presence.

Furthermore, the idea of Meetra being so far removed from Revan's power is demonstratably not true. The Jedi Exile defeated Darth Traya amplified by the Trayus Core, after absorbing the Force power of Vrook Lamar, Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar, which happened only after she'd already dominated them collectively. Each of those Masters are stated to be around equal to Bastila Shan by Shan herself. Bastila Shan successfully resisted Darth Malak's torture, corruption and domination for an entire week. Traya is absolutely on the level of Malak, and Meetra defeated her before becoming much more powerful in the years between Traya's death and Surik's mission to find Revan, who likewise defeated Malak.

Simply put:
1.Meetra was not even close to her best at this point in time as she fought Nyriss.
2.The fight started off with her not knowing her opponent and being forced to give way to dodge an attack, clearly not expecting her attacker to be able to take advantage so instantaneously.
3.Meetra nonetheless is capable of holding her own in both a duel and against a husking-degree level of Force lightning she's unprepared to defend against.
4.After the Nyriss duel she performs on a much higher level because of Revan's mitigating presence.
5.She's shown to be demonstratably near Revan himself given her placement next to Traya who has immense scaling off of Bastila.

It's not that I'm anti-Revan, it's that I'm pro-the characters he likes to scale him off. I openly support Jedi Exiles scaling and his placement near the top but not through stuff like that.

KingofBlades wrote:Expect a response sometime in the near future

Let me guess, something about no explicit mentions? If it's the tired old argument you tried previously when we debated this, please save us both the time. Your counter won't hold.

BoD wrote:Loving the Meetra respect. Nice job.

Why, thank you.

The lord of hunger wrote:good thread

Cheth wrote:Great post

Thanks, both.

Korriban was stated to be far weaker than in Revan's time during PoD then even weaker during the PT. Lehon is very different, it had the Star Forge.

Bumping due to relevance.

RhoyneDelta wrote:I agree with a lot of points, but I don't think she is as close to Revan as you paint her. You say she is "demonstratably near Revan himself given her placement next to Traya who has immense scaling off of Bastila.", but Chris Avellone has a bunch of quotes hyping Revan above Meetra and even saying Revan would likely win against Traya+Meetra (too lazy to search them all up, should eb in the Revan respect thread) and Traya herself is basically a Revan hype girl, speaking in awe of him.
Also you say that the narrative of Meetra below Nyriss below Revan is "massively contradicted" by Revan saying that Scourge, Meetra and T3 combined could help him bridge the gap between him and Vitiate. It's notable that he even lists someone as weak as T3 as a relevant factor and he is right given how the battle played out. Ultimately those three combined maybe being enough to bridge a gap between him and Vitiate in no way paints Meetra as a near-equal to Revan, not even the three of them combined really.

The importance of lessers is a big theme in the Revan novel, Revan trying to do everything by himself because of his massive power is a consistent flaw and gets him captured early on. He and Meetra leave their allies behind and only have a makeshift, opportunistic Alliance to rely upon, resulting in defeat. Meanwhile a number of times the importance of lessers is highlighted be it T3 in the Vititae fight, Nyriss non-force-sensitive servant, Revan and Malak having originally been defeated because of the betrayal of some guard and on numerous occasions even a fodder character liek Carth Onasi would have been of huge use, for example by informing the Republic about the impednding invasion which would have lead to them ebing vastly more prepared.
Scourge seeing Meetra as clearly Revans student is a  good quote for indicating post-Nyriss growth, but once again it really does not paint them as near-equals and even Meetras great feat against Vitiate is noted to be done "In desperation" meaning she was not really confident in it and it likely had a good chance at failing, it's not indicated to be nearly as impressive as Revan wielding the dark and light side together and blasting vitiate (who is not much of a saber fighter anyway) back. Meetra might be above Nyriss but is never portrayed as near-Revan.

Chris Avellone's opinion is subjective. Never do we see any kind of battle in KotOR 2 suggesting what the power difference might be. If we want to go into authorial intent. They intended to have Nihilus murder Revan in Ludo Kressh's tomb and only removed it due to being 'too dark'.

Chris Avellone's opinion is also of a different, hypothetical Revan we never actually saw. He also has the true Sith going around creating planets and who knows what else.

The opinion of Drew Karpyshyn regarding the actual characters we see has Revan being < Meetra in a duel as opposed to what Avellone suggests.

Revan only suggests 'and even T3' in the context of the larger picture. That picture being their plan. The plan which has them breaking into the throneroom and where T3 helps by sealing the doors shut permanently and leaving the three of them alone with Vitiate so the Imperial Guard aren't involved. So no, that doesn't really work.

Also Meetra threw it in desperation because she couldn't cross the 40 meter long throneroom in time on foot not because she lacked confidence. You ignored the part where Tenebrae is so surprised that he views the Exile with 'hesitation and uncertainty' upon being confronted with her and attempts to analyse her 'strengths and weaknesses' before even trying to engage in any way.

RhoyneDelta wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

RhoyneDelta wrote:I agree with a lot of points, but I don't think she is as close to Revan as you paint her. You say she is "demonstratably near Revan himself given her placement next to Traya who has immense scaling off of Bastila.", but Chris Avellone has a bunch of quotes hyping Revan above Meetra and even saying Revan would likely win against Traya+Meetra (too lazy to search them all up, should eb in the Revan respect thread) and Traya herself is basically a Revan hype girl, speaking in awe of him.
Also you say that the narrative of Meetra below Nyriss below Revan is "massively contradicted" by Revan saying that Scourge, Meetra and T3 combined could help him bridge the gap between him and Vitiate. It's notable that he even lists someone as weak as T3 as a relevant factor and he is right given how the battle played out. Ultimately those three combined maybe being enough to bridge a gap between him and Vitiate in no way paints Meetra as a near-equal to Revan, not even the three of them combined really.

The importance of lessers is a big theme in the Revan novel, Revan trying to do everything by himself because of his massive power is a consistent flaw and gets him captured early on. He and Meetra leave their allies behind and only have a makeshift, opportunistic Alliance to rely upon, resulting in defeat. Meanwhile a number of times the importance of lessers is highlighted be it T3 in the Vititae fight, Nyriss non-force-sensitive servant, Revan and Malak having originally been defeated because of the betrayal of some guard and on numerous occasions even a fodder character liek Carth Onasi would have been of huge use, for example by informing the Republic about the impednding invasion which would have lead to them ebing vastly more prepared.
Scourge seeing Meetra as clearly Revans student is a  good quote for indicating post-Nyriss growth, but once again it really does not paint them as near-equals and even Meetras great feat against Vitiate is noted to be done "In desperation" meaning she was not really confident in it and it likely had a good chance at failing, it's not indicated to be nearly as impressive as Revan wielding the dark and light side together and blasting vitiate (who is not much of a saber fighter anyway) back. Meetra might be above Nyriss but is never portrayed as near-Revan.

Chris Avellone's opinion is subjective. Never do we see any kind of battle in KotOR 2 suggesting what the power difference might be. If we want to go into authorial intent. They intended to have Nihilus murder Revan in Ludo Kressh's tomb and only removed it due to being 'too dark'.

Chris Avellone's opinion is also of a different, hypothetical Revan we never actually saw. He also has the true Sith going around creating planets and who knows what else.

The opinion of Drew Karpyshyn regarding the actual characters we see has Revan being < Meetra in a duel as opposed to what Avellone suggests.

Revan only suggests 'and even T3' in the context of the larger picture. That picture being their plan. The plan which has them breaking into the throneroom and where T3 helps by sealing the doors shut permanently and leaving the three of them alone with Vitiate so the Imperial Guard aren't involved. So no, that doesn't really work.

Also Meetra threw it in desperation because she couldn't cross the 40 meter long throneroom in time on foot not because she lacked confidence. You ignored the part where Tenebrae is so surprised that he views the Exile with 'hesitation and uncertainty' upon being confronted with her and attempts to analyse her 'strengths and weaknesses' before even trying to engage in any way.

I have no problem with author intent saying Nihilus could kill Revan personally. Traya described Revan as power itself "Revan was power." and that was back from when she knew him as Darth Revan, who is well-below Revan Reborn, so I don't  necessarily see Avallones opinion as inconsistent with the lore.


Revan referring to T3 only within the context of the plan is dubious given that it follows the question "He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?" he was specifically referring to a fight with Vitiate and we later see T3 have a noticeable impact on exactly that fight. Once again the three combined maybe bridging a gap between Revan and Vitiate does not make Meetra near-Revan by any stretch, especially since jedi, especially close ones, are generally described as growing stronger when fighting together and it is possible for a far inferior jedi to still  be  a noticeable boon to a team, for example Johun Othone when he fought Bane together with Farfalla and Raskta or even in the novel Xedrix apprentices buying him time to charge his attack. For another example DE Leia was trash compared to DE Luke, but still vital in beating Palpatine.

Meetra throwing it in desperation, because she could not reach Vitiate on-foot makes no sense. If she could be confident in reaching him with a saber-throw there would be no reason to be desperate, plus Vitiate was focussed on Revan. Vitiate being hesitant and uncertain is normal, considering that he was just dropped into a surprise-battle against at least one dangerous opponent and as the word "Uncertainty" implies he did not know how strong Meetra exactly was, which made him more cautious. Plus she can be a dangerous factor even while being considerably below Revan, Vitiate was already facing Revan so any move against Meetra would have to be considered with dealing with Revan in mind. Plus even with the doors being sealed Vitiates allies are gonna get to him eventually so Vitiate has less pressure than the heroes to act quickly.

Traya also says that Meetra is her best student directly un the context of combative strength. That you can't have power of the magnitude that Nihilus does and still even comprehend the universe in the same manner as they do. Traya's also not the only one with opinions on the matter either.

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

This comes at the end of one long thought process. And whilst you'd be right to point out that the context at that point is directly concerning the Emperor. A 'real chance of victory' is much more of an over-all estimation of their chances.

We also have the following statement from Revan where T3 is a billion pieces of scrap metal and Revan has just personally suffered the Force lightning attack of Tenebrae and recovered from it:

“You can’t defeat all three of us,” Revan said. “United, we are stronger than even you.”

Revan still thinks the same as before, despite the overpowering of himself and regardless of T3-M4.

As far as Meetra's desperation is concerned:

Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.

In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild sidearm throw,

It is literally because she can't move fast enough to intercept Tenebrae's swing at Revan. That's why she goes for a saber throw, it's a desperate act to save him.

My entire point is that these actions negate the idea of Revan >> Darth Nyriss >> Meetra & Scourge. It isn't to say Meetra is literally as powerful as Revan. It's that she's demonstratably way beyond the one-shot fodder that people had otherwise portrayed her as being in other threads using that logic.

Darth Nihilus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:They intended to have Nihilus murder Revan in Ludo Kressh's tomb and only removed it due to being 'too dark'.

Interesting. From where is this? I didn't know about this.

Most of the remnants you'll find in the tomb of Ludo Kressh section and the KOTOR 2 Prima Guide section about that area.