SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

@Cheth Really good post. I think that I will enjoy this debate. I don't know when I will respond to you but I hope doing this in the next week or maybe the one after.

xolthol wrote:@Cheth Really good post. I think that I will enjoy this debate. I don't know when I will respond to you but I hope doing this in the next week or maybe the one after.

Okay, take your time

Counting at you @cheth

@Seturna I will try not to disapoint

Excellent post Cheth.

Word Salad wrote:Excellent post Cheth.

Thanks!

I liked this. I need to look into DOTJ more. Thanks for the post Cheth

Amino ragdolling.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:I liked this. I need to look into DOTJ more. Thanks for the post Cheth

Nah, thank you

@Cheth It also happens sometimes that I am a bit rude when debating. Please don't take it personnaly.

*MASTER WOLF SAZEN*

~Nihl > Talon ? !~

In conclusion, Nihl was a leader, Talon an assassin. Nihl didn’t become the new leader because he was more skilled or powerful, but since he was more qualified

While I agree on the fact that Nihl is way more suited than Talon for the job of leading the Sith, you must acknowledge the fact that, because siths are siths, IF Nihl wasn't at the very least equal to Talon there is just no reason for her not to try take the power for her by defeating him or at least challenging him. Remember that Talon was fully dedicated to Krayt, not to the One Sith Empire. With the death of her master she haven't lots of reason not to claim the mentor of the Sith Empire if she was able to. 

Therefore we have that at the very least they are in the same league in term of power.

 You brought up a training session. Which was mentioned once, and the only thing we know of it is that Nihl in some way or another hurt Talon. We don’t know who won it or if Nihl was hit too

Lets suppose one instant that this is true, that Nihl hurt Talon but that the lattest have the upper hand in the fight, won't you think that she will have another face than this on :


Her face seems to be a mask of shame or something similar. Do you really think that she will have the same face if she had the upper hand against Nihl ? No clearly this seems not really logic. 
I agree that she have been just thrown against a wall by Cade but knowing what amount of punishment she have been able to take, I higly doubt that she is really hurt by this. 

In addition you have also the verb use by Cade "smack". The possible definition of this word are:

Cambridge Dictionary wrote:- to hit someone or something forcefully with the flat inside part of your hand, producing a short, loud noise, especially as a way of punishing a child.

- to hit something hard against something else

Both definition of this word clearly imply that Nihl was the dominant fighter here.
 

In which Nihl had the help of a tuk’ata, and still the fight ended without a conclusion since Krayt stopped him. Sure you could argue Nihl had the advantage near the end, but he started with one too. And tuk’ata are more than capable of posing a significant threat. 

Tukatas are particularly non-coherent threats, you have some issue where a Tukata is a match for a Anakin Skywalker and you also have Darth Bane casually destroying some of them.... Except if you can prove me that this Tukata have been relevant in this fight and was not just an help for Darth Nihl to find where Talon was the Tukata help is just irrelevant. 
And as you point, at the end, Nihl have the upper hand.

Because of all of this I reassert that we have a clear proofs of Nihl superiority over Talon.

What confuses me however, is how you jumped from Nihl > Talon to Nihl being more resilient than Talon, which are two completely different things. Even if I agree that Nihl > Talon, or you manage to prove so, it still doesn’t mean he’s superior in every aspect. Exar Kun or Ulic Qel-Droma would beat Nomi Sunrider, but she still was far superior at battle meditation. Throughout the legacy storyline, Talon has taken incredible amounts of damage, and mostly got back up, due to being “conditioned to be in top physical condition.” (I already posted that scan), and due to her being incredibly loyal to Krayt, to a degree where she’d die for him. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Nihl is able to take as many hits as her, just because he MIGHT be superior to her

Interresting point... but absolutely false. Lets think a bit: what allow someone to take dammage ? Three things:

1. His/her physical condition
   
2. His/her passive force barrier
   
3. His/her physical augmentation
   

While I agree that Talon is in an extraordinary good physical condition because of her training, I higly doubt that this physical condition put her above Nihl who as a Nagai Warlord must also be in a really good physical shape. 
It only remains physical augmentation and passive force barrier, both link to the force power of the force user. 

Your argument is that some people can be really good in some power of the Force but not in every single one as an example you used Nomi and her Battle Meditation skills. 

You are right, but only for really specific force power.  Battle Meditation is a really particular force power that not everyone learn and that recquire a huge level of skill or a natural gift for it. But this isn't the case for physical augmentation and passive force barrier which are base force power that everyone learn at the very start of their training. 

A good comparison for your theory comes from some weightlifting exercices based on the strenght of people. There is some exercises such as deadlifts (you just need to lift a barbel from the ground and being stand up) which did not recquire a huge technic and that are a good showing of your full strenght: if you can lift a bigger weight then you are stronger. On the other hand, you have exercise such as power snatch (you need to lift a barbel from the ground over your head) where the technique is crucial and can allow you to lift a way bigger weight than someone stronger than you but with less technique. 

Coming back to my point, physical augmentation and passive force barrier are both basic force power which directly relate to the power of a force user. 

Partial conclusion:

I have shown that Nihl > Talon and that this translate into Nihl being more resilient than Talon.

~From Drug Cade to Vector Cade: growth and power~

And in the scans you posted, we see Cade using lightning for his shatterpoint ability, not TK. So to assume that since Cade destroyed the Muur talisman with shatterpoint and lightning, his TK would be able to do the same, seems baseless.

Shatterpoint is the ability to see the flaws in someone, to see where it can break or be healed. This is not link to FL or Tk, this is just a power itself. Cade can use then FL or TK at will, the fact that he used FL is just a proof that he prefered this techique not that he isn't able to use TK instead. The only thing that is baseless here is your assumption that FL and shatterpoint are link.

There’s also a difference in being hit by an object that was thrown with TK, and being directly kicked into a wall after having your arm cut off. 

Being hit by a Tked object or being blast against a wall is nearly the same thing in term of impact on your body... and having your arm cut of did not make you easier to knock-out at the opposite, the pain will help you to stay conscient.

There’s no reason to think Cade has grown in TK power from when he threw the ship to when he stomped Nihl.  

Cade have grown in power between the moment where he threw the ship and when he stomped Nihl. And because TK is one of the basic powers (like physical augmentation) its TK must have also grown. 
If you did not think that Cade growth lets me just remind you this:

• The ship feat was done when Cade was at his lowest under the influence of the death sticks {*}, something that he will progressively stop using
  
• Its power only manifest as burst of unfocused powers {**} but could become way more efficient if trained. Then he was trained by Darth Talon as ordered by Krayt.
  
•  He was submit to the embrace of pain, something that allowed Krayt to unlock his potential {***}
  

You can try to argue that Cade did not growth during this time, but this is factually wrong.

{*}"That would be Cade. We’ve been through a lot with the guy, seen what motivates him-seen him at his weakest when dealing with addiction and at his strongest, when he decides to become a one man Sith-wrecking machine"

{**} "You have great raw power but it needs focus. It does no good to ignore it -- it is part of who you are" 
        "Feel the dark power, my Lord! It is raw, but it could be trained, focused, honed…"

{***}

Partial Conclusion:
Cade have grown in power between the time he thrown a ship on Talon and he also learned shatterpoint -ability allowing him to find the weak spot in his opponent-. The power that he unleashed on Nihl was just leagues above the throwing of a huge portion of a ship to hundreds of meters.

~Krayt's Fist indeniable power~

Stryfe did temporarily match Cade

Correction your honor, Stryfe stalemate Cade in a TK duel showing a parity in term of Force Power to the powerhouse that is Cade. This clearly show that Stryfe have as many raw force power as Cade, putting him pretty high in term of Force power -cf my previous point-. If you think that Stryfe isn't able to match Cade power, just explained me how he was able to counter his opponent TK.

Cade asking for help was mainly since he was occupied trying to defeat Krayt once and for all

This only prove that Cade known that he won't be able to easily dispatch Stryfe, clearly showing that in addition to comparable Force Power, Stryfe have also comparable fighting skills.  

Cade is superior to Stryfe by virtue of overwhelming his defence with a simple kick

This only shows that Cade was able to find a gap in his opponent defense not that he his superior. The Legacy arc is full of cheap shot or surprised TK that dominate more powerful opponent. By following your logic, we have:

• Cade is above Krayt because of his cheapshot at the end of legacy war
  
• Darth maladi is above Cade because she pushed him with TK just after being mind raped by Cade
  
• Shado Vao is above Cade because he Tked him
  
• ...
  

As you can see your theroy is baseless and did not show that Stryfe isn't a problem to Cade. 

Partial conclusion :

Stryfe had stalemate Cade in a TK contest and was a threat big enough to force Cade to ask for help in order to end the fight quickly.

~Becoming one with the Force~

You claimed that Ben needed to gather strength and power to become a force ghost after his death, and justified this by saying he would have tried to fight Vader and Luke and the rest a chance to escape. But. They did escape anyways? Ben kept fighting until the point where they were perfectly capable of escaping on their own. And like you said, “Ben and Vader are in a perfect stalemate”, and troopers were about to involve themselves. Being in a stalemate, Ben knows he can’t win. Since Vader has reinforcements nearby, Vader would soon gain the advantage. Luke and the rest already have the headstart they require to escape. Ben stopped fighting since there was no reason to continue

Indeed they escape, but you seems to forget that the only reason why they escape Vader was because Vader was trapped behind a blast door and this lets enough time to Luke and his companion to escape. And clearly Vader being blocked by the door wasn't expected by Kenobi. [2:35] If this hadn't happened the team will have been stopped by Vader. 
Your theory based on the fact that Ben have played its role and then just decided (whitout reason...) to stop fighting did not work at all. On the opposite, if he could have done like Wolf Sazen (IE: becoming one with the Force and fighting) he could have done to his friends and even to the rebellion a huge advantage, just imagine the repercussion of an injured Vader at the time where nealry all jedi were considered dead an the grasp of the Empire really powerful.
Clearly this have just zero sense for him to stop fighting just because he cannot win this fight.

Now that I have explained why your theory doesn't hold, lets destroy your example which are not really good when examinating one after the other.

Infact that position is used multiple times for jedi at peace who are ready to die. One of the more interesting examples are Ulic Qel-Droma. 
As you see here, Ulic stops fighting Sylvar, despite being in a stalemate. And unlike Ben, we know that Ulic does not possess the force at the time, being severed from it by Nomi Sunrider. He knew he could not become a force ghost, not even being a jedi anymore, nor connected to the force. He merely was at peace, seeing no reason to fight Sylvar anymore. His stance is exactly the same as Ben’s as he surrendered. But while Sylvar did not strike him down, he was still killed

You are missinterpreted what happend here. Ulic decide to stop fighting because he saw that Sylavr won't stop fighting except if he isn't fighting her. All of the fight was a way for Ulic to reach Sylvar behind her anger. This is clearly visible in the scan that you gave to see: just look at the face of Ulic he clearly seems to expected what happened, he did not seems surprise at all that he survived. 
At the opposite, just see his face while being backstab by the blasterbolt, its did not show any sign of peace.

And despite not being a force sensitive, his body vanished after his death, becoming a force ghost. Initially, one might claim “like Ben he entered that position to gather power to become a force ghost!”, but there is one major flaw with that argument. Ulic could not gather power, nor draw on the force. Nor did he learn the technique, nor did he know he could turn into one, not being a force user nor a jedi. Since you do not require the force to become a force ghost, you definitely do not require to gather strength first

So your point is the fact that you did not need to use the Force to become a Force Ghost... Clearly, even the words themselves seems to contradict your theory. 
Anyways, lets just think a minute:
Who is Ulic Qel-Droma? An ancient Force User who have been severed from the Force. In addition to this, just see what Vima said of him : "Ulic may not have been able to touch the Force but he understand it more than any of us... He had the heart of a Jedi". 
Who successfully become one with the Force? A bunch of Force users and 1 ex-Force user (sever from the Force) who seems to be really close to a jedi at the very least in his lifeway and thoughts. 
What is your deduction from this informations? "You don't need the Force to become a Force Ghost!"
What is my deduction? It require a Force user to become a Force Ghost and it appears that Ulic was an exception which can be explained by its proximity from a philosophical point of view to the jedi and the fact that he was before being sever from the Force a powerful Force user.

Clearly my theory is way more logic than yours, I did not use an exception (and a really particular one) to make a generalization. 

If that isn’t enough to convince you, we also have Qui Gon Jinn and Arca Jeth showing that even when caught off-guard mid-combat, you still can become a force ghost.

Oh my God! This argument is just non-sense... Qui-Gon, Arca Jeth and the other were caught of guard but did not become one with the Force DURING the fight AFTER ! Each time you see them being mortally wounded then they have some time to say "Good Bye!" and then they become one with the Force. Just watch the scan that you give us about Arca Jeth, here for the death of Qui-Gon Jinn [0:53] and HERE for the death of Ulic Qel-Droma. None of this guys become a force ghost during the fight contrary to what Wolf Sazen did. Your examples are just irrelevant... Try again.

Partial Conclusion:
You failed to give any reason fro Obi-Wan to stop fighting Vader and all the examples given are just irrelevant in regards to becoming a Force ghost during a fight.

~Dark Side Galactic influence~

None of this seems to imply that the darkside is more powerful than the lightside in anything but influence and military force. Infact mentioning Revan and Malak “ruling so convincely” further suggests they refer to the fact that it is about the sith openly controlling everything, not the darkside itself being superior to the light. The picture just further supports that. “Its more than just a function of having the sith in power: the jedi have been diminished and everywhere violence, hatred, and selfishness rule supreme.”. All this means is that the sith are in control, the jedi are few in numbers, and that under the rule of the sith, people focus on caring for themselves, not others. Its quite similar to KOTOR (which the quote you posted compares this era to), where most that you meet, even those normally good, seem too worried to help you unless you help them first.

Blablablabla... lots of words here but have you read the quotes that I have provided? Because you have forgot some part that clearly back up my theory. Here they are:

• "In the Legacy era, there is no balance to the Force"
  
• "the influence of the the dark is stronger than ever, and far more visible"
  
• "The dark side of the Force clouds everything, and the galaxy's future is harder to see than ever before"
  
• "If the influence of the dark side waxes and wanes, during the Legacy era it reaches peaks unseen except during the grimmest times in galactic history"
  

I agree that without this context, parts (the not bold quotes) of this can be interpreted as not directly link to the Force balance but more from a political point of view. But if you take into account the bolded quotes it directly shown a context focus on the impact on the Force itself.

And even if we were to say that Stryfe was amped by the era (he was not, this is just hypothetically), that would be his standard state throughout all of legacy, including during his fight with Cade, and his fight with Saarai. So litterary all his fights. So in the end, how impressive would he really have been if this was the case? 

I must agree that my argument wasn't the clearest, but I will made it clear for you. The fact that Stryfe is amped is not really relevant but Wolf Sazen being hindered is relevant so under normal circumstances (IE: no hinderance )Wolf would be more powerful than his version that defeat Stryfe. 

Partial conclusion:
You missed the context of the quotes and the indeniable part explicitly talking about the Force balance of the galaxy. I have shown how that this is relevant to my scaling chain.

~The Sacrifice of a Master~

I still have to address who I think held the advantage. I honestly think it was a stalemate. I won’t claim otherwise. 

Yet it is exactly what you have done....

However I could. Stryfe was always known to be an aggressive fighter no matter the circumstances. Like your quotes said, he was an “explosion of raw power”. His fight with Saarai for example, show him trying to kill her, instead of focusing on his own defence as she already had him in a telekinetic grip. The reason Stryfe went so openly against Wolf, was not since he wanted to sacrifice himself, but since that is just his fighting style. But Wolf fully intended to sacrifice himself. 

Are you claiming that Stryfe is an inept fighter? That he doesn't know to defend himself? This is highly questionable when you take into account that Stryfe was in the top of the sith of his era (being Krayt's Fist and then Wyyrlock hand after the disparition of Talon and Nihl).

You claimed he died since he focused on becoming a ghost while fighting Stryfe, limiting his power and focus. But while I’ve already disproved that

Clearly you hadn't ...

I still don’t see the sense behind that argument. If Wolf normally was superior, why would he let himself die, instead of just plainly kill Stryfe in combat. He’d surely be useful against the thousands of other sith. You said this was illogical “Kenobi have no reason and instead of trying to strike Vader in order to help Luke and his friends to escape decide to stop fighting.”, but for me, it seems far more illogical to sacrifice yourself during an ongoing battle, when you don’t really have to. And don’t say he did it because he knew Cade could do it. Several sith escaped, and Cade won through luck, he’d definitely be useful alive. No. If anything, Wolf was the inferior one. Sacrificing yourself and dragging your opponent with you isn’t something you do if you’re superior, its a desperate act, an attempt to give your life so someone else won’t have to. 

Your theory is interresting but just forget the whole context. The fight between Wolf Sazen and Stryfe happend during the attack of Cade on Corruscant to kill Krayt. Indeed, after the fight on the jedi temple, Cade and co understand that they just have no chance to win the war by classic means. The arrival of Krayt's Sith Troopers and their ships change the tide of the war. As a result they launch an strike on Corruscant. But in order for this attack to succeed the strike team is
supported by a powerful armada which sacrificed itself to give Cade enough time to defeat Krayt. 
One of the main point here is to go fast, defeating Krayt before there is no more armada. As you can see, just before the fight between Krayt and Cade and during this fight, the fleet isn't far from being destroyed by the annihilators :



And everyone on the mission know that the time is a precious thing that they cannot loose.

Then, the strike team faced a sith team lead by Darth Talon who decide to defeat them. In this team they were 2 real threats: Talon and Stryfe. Cade deal with Talon while Sazen deal with Stryfe. Sazen know that if he did not really quickly kill his opponent, the fight will take some time (yes I admit this is pretty obvious) and Cade will be distracted from his true goal which is killing Krayt. This goal was the only important thing here and must be achieve by Cade alone (as he explained to Master Sazen). So rather than staying alive to provide some minor help, Master Wolf Sazen saw the big picture and decide to kill Darth Stryfe as fast as possible. The best way to do this was to sacrifice his life.

Because of this you cannot made a comparison with what happened on Felucia with Shaak Ti and Marek, the whole context is just completely different and thus the two acts were things completely different.

Partial Conclusion:
The sacrifice of Master Sazen and his superiority over Stryfe aren't incompatible at all when you look at the bigger picture and don't forget the context. 

~Conclusion on this part~

As I have just shown, my scaling chain still hold perfectly despite your efforts to contest facts. This allow me to scale Wolf Sazen way above anything that Daegen Lok have ever display...

Speaking of the devil, lets see what you've bring for him:

*DAEGEN LOK THE PALTRY*

~Dueling skills ?~

Daegen Lok killing Queen Hadiya, a warlord, even after hesitating, and then moving on to slaughter a platoon of her best warriors while wounded

You forget once again the context of this two feats. Indeed, just for a remembrance, Lok have played Queen Hadiya and become her general and love interrest. Then he betrayed her and kill her. I agree on the fact that he hesitated (which nearly cost him to die) but clearly the circumstances were still heavily on his favor: the queen was asleep, she thought that he was in love with her. Suddenly she is awaken and see that he is trying to kill her , she have already a blade in her lower rib cage (cf the 4th panel of your scan, we can see that the queen is holding her side and that a blood that isn't Daegen one is spilling)... despite her being a warlord (which give us no idea of how skilled she is with a blade) except if the gap of skills and strenght have been heavily in favor of the queen, she would have just die. This is not relevant in this fight at all...

As for her best soldiers platoon, Daegen explicitly say that they were no match for a je'daii not only him. Yes this is a good feat but which isn't really impressive when you know that they weren't Force Users. In addition there is no proof that Daegen fight the platoon as one complete unit, knowing that he was their general it seems pretty legit to think that at least some of his killed were made against surprised ennemy.

[Fenn]he proceeds to lose to Lok. Its also worth noting that the je’daii had a very low opinion of him, thinking he was mad, when in reality he just saw a mostly accurate vision of the future. You could argue Lok only beat Fenn by tricking him, but most of the fight was off-panel, and you see that both of Fenn’s arms are heavily wounded after dueling Lok, so if nothing else, it was a stalemate. This becomes remarkably impressive when you realise that Lok had been imprisoned for years beforehand, and this was the first time he had dueled since before that. He’s even noted to be out of practice. So in prime conditions, he most likely would be undeniably superior to Fenn

Wait a minute, you are claiming that Fenn was defeated legitimately by Lok? You are joking, aren't you? Fenn legitimately defeat Lok (as we can see in the first pannel of the last scan that you provide), despite not willing to kill his opponent. Then he was just cheapshot by Daegen who win by fooling his opponent "Still far too easy to fool you, Fenn". I can agree on the fact that this match wasn't a stomp of Lok by Fenn, nonetheless on the few panels that we have of this fight we have Fenn hurting Daegen and Fenn asking him to surrender. This is at least the prood that Daegen did not have the upper hand in this fight. In addition Fenn did not seems a great warrior, just for remembrance he is arts master (something that made Lok laught at him).

 More impressive however, is that Lok regularly killed multiple flesh raiders at once, despite them being “beasts bred for war”.

Yeah, flesh raiders, a bunch of guys who are just good to be killed on the battlefield with ease by most of the je'daii... Really (un)impressive. Particularly when you see that on a position where they cannot used their number as an advantage they managed to defeat him. Basically he survived only because of the intervention of Sek'Nos.
I asked you, have you actually a good feat for the Flesh Raiders? Because personnaly I didn't have one. Yes they can be "bred for war" but this do not include that they are good fighters, their strategy can be just outnumbered theit ennemy and never retreating (except if an order is given), this strategy can allow to win multiple battle if you have enough soldiers (which the Rakatan Empire have)... 

Partial Conclusion:
You failed to prove that Daegen have any impressive skills with his blade. Actually if Wolf Sazen engage in a lightsaber fight, Daegen will die really quickly because of being a poor duelist.

~Mind twist, failure and co...~

First of we have him using it on jedi ranger Zana. Here he makes her experience her greatest fear; being set on fire. The mind twist was so powerful that her body actually showed signs of burns, which gradually got worse, to where it almost covered her entire body. The je’daii were unable to stop it, even moving to another planet, and a je’daii temple master trying to help. This is even more impressive considering the planet they moved her to was Tython, a force nexus which would drastically increase the je’daii’s power. 

Clap Clap Clap Clap (applause)... Daegen was able to trick a random je'daii ranger. really impressive... But wait a minute, we have only one success of Lok mind twisting someone. If I remember right, we have at least three times where Lok used his mind trick and was counter:

Against Xesh on Bogan:

Spoiler:

 

Against Hawk Ryo

Spoiler:

Against Xesh 

Spoiler:

With all of this I can higly doubt that Lok mind twist is really efficient in a fight. It seems that lots of people successfully break them with not too much effort.

 Lok again used the mind twist. But this time he used it on je’daii temple master Jake Fenn. And exposing his fear, he force pushed Zana a significant distance

Well I don't see the link between Daegen pushing Zana and him trying more or less to mind twist Fenn. But anyways you seems to forget that Fenn at this point was heavily injured by Daegen strike up to the poin that he cannot stand... I highly doubt that being able to mind twist someone in such position a really good feat.

Just to show how powerful the temple masters were, I’ll show their greatest feat:
As Xesh arrived on Tython, a whole ship of darksiders (rakatans), including his own master, died on its surface, and were absorbed into Xesh, making him a darkside nexus. Throwing Tython off-balance. This in turn made massive force storms appear, as well as quickly making the planet destroy itself. Xesh and the force storms fed on each other, both becoming massively powerful. 
However, all the nine je’daii temple masters, including Jake Fenn, gather their power, each becoming “points of light” in the massive darkness of the planet. Through combining their power, the jedi managed to dissipate the power of the force storms, Xesh, and then bring balance to the planet again. 
[...]
So 9 je’daii temple masters >>>> Xesh, force storms, multiple natural disasters, and a nexus threatening to destroy the entirety of the planet. Despite being a team effort, it still shows how powerful they are, and if they combined are more powerful than a darkside nexus able to destroy a planet, they should still be considerably powerful individually. 

Really really impressive for the 9 je'daii masters. Nonetheless you have forget something really important here. The sum of the power of some being is more than the mathematical addition of it. To made my point simpler to understand with the Force 1+1>2. And this particular feat remind me of one other feat really really similar: DORSK 81 TK feat. Lets just have a look at it and understand why its perfectly shows that despite being impressive the counter-storm feat isn't a individual proof of individual power for the je'daii masters.

Here is the feat of Dorsk 81:


As you can see, this guy successfully pushed an entire fleet of star destroyers through half of the Yavin system and here he was just help by the jedi trainees, not by any jedi master or even jedi knight. Lets just think a minute even if we think that there is lots of trainees I highly doubt that there was more than 500 of them (and I am still being extremly generous, a more realistic number will be around 50). If we divide this feat by 500 we are still at an average level of power that is just ludicrous... do you really think that this jedi trainees have such power? Honnestly this seems clearly not the case. 

Now coming back to the je'daii masters. Yes they can be powerful but I see no reason not to apply to them the same factor that what happend with Dorsk 81 particularly knowing that Dorsk died doing this and that Master Quan-Jang nearly die to.

Partial conclusion:
Daegen Lok mind twist is an ability which have been more countered than successfully used. The rare time it was a success that was against (random) jedi knight or heavily injured masters whith nearly no feat for him. 

~Daegen failing chain~

Instead of providing a new argument in favor of Master Wolf Sazen I will give you a failing chain that show just how not impressive is Daegen Lok. Lets begin it.

On Bogan, Daegen Lok attack by surprise Xesh and use his mind twist on him. Despite this, Xesh was able to easily dispatch him and nearly to kill him. One could argument that Daegen Lok didn't want to kill Xesh (which is true) nonetheless Lok have just no reason to deliberately loose to Xesh in order to find his answers. If defeating him was in his range of power he would have done it.

Because of this we have that Xesh > Daegen Lok.

As my opponent pointed out, while arriving on Tython, Xesh was amp up to an insane point by the death of his vessel

As Xesh arrived on Tython, a whole ship of darksiders (rakatans), including his own master, died on its surface, and were absorbed into Xesh, making him a darkside nexus. Throwing Tython off-balance. This in turn made massive force storms appear, as well as quickly making the planet destroy itself. Xesh and the force storms fed on each other, both becoming massively powerful.

So clearly we have that: Amp!Xesh >>>> Normal Xesh.

This same Xesh faced 3 journeyers (equivalent of padawan) on Tython and was not able to defeat them by his own addmission:


In addition Xesh had some advantages:

• he was willing to kill his opponent while they weren't:
  

"Put down your weapon stranger.We mean no harm" "Surrender or I will be forced to harm you" 

• he had a Force saber while they just (only two of them) have metal sword easily destroy by the force saber.
  

Despite all this advantages, he cannot defeat them. He even cannot kill one of them.

As a result we have that: Amp!Xesh < 3 journeyers.

Here I will anticipate one of your potential reaction which could be to said that because of the mental conditioning of Xesh by Skal'Nas he wasn't able to work at his full potential against this journeyers and thus explaining his defeat. 
But this counter-argument will not work for the following reasons:

1. Skal'nas mental conditionning didn't force Xesh to become a friend of the je'daii, only to learn as much as possible from them {*}, something that can be made whithout becoming a je'daii. For example by acting like a thief or a spy.
   
2. Xesh really thought that he was attacked by the Je'daii and that loosing will be equivalent to dying {**} this clearly going in the opposite direction to his mission so he had no reason to be restrain.
   
3. Even if you think that this mental link impacted Xesh during his fight with the three journeyers, the same should have happened when facing Daegen Lok who like the journeyers is a je'daii and have received a force apparition of Xesh
   

All of this show that clearly the mental conditionning that Xesh received from the Rakata's Predor cannot be used as a potential explanation to the fact that Xesh wasn't able to defeat the three journeyers.

{*}"But buried deep whitin, the compulsion to learn all you could of the Je'daii reamined"
{**}"You are the enemy! I will fight and die as a warrior! You will not feast on my bones"

Partial conclusion:

Lets recap this failing chain:
3 padawans > Amp!Xesh >>>> Xesh > Daegen Lok.

So clearly if Lok isn't even close to 3 padawan do you really think that he will be able to face someone like Master Wolf Sazen?

*CONCLUSION*

My scaling chain still hold despite my opponent efforts and clearly put Wolf Sazen above anything that Lok had ever demonstrate as a fighter.
Lok skills with a blade are just nebulous and clearly not put him on Wolf league.
Lok mind twist is something that failed times and times there isn't any reason for it to succeed this time.
Lok is way below three padawans...

The obvious conclusion here is that Daegen Lok won't stand a chance against Master Wolf Sazen.

The ball is now in the court of my opponent!

Those who want to be tagged
@MasterCilghal @Blade_of_Dorin @lorenzo.r.2nd @Word Salad @DC77 (Reborn)

@Cheth Have you an idea of when you will respond ?

My connection is still out and I have to reply in a debate with a time limit within the week so hopefully next week. @Xolthol

@Cheth No probleme, take your time.

@Xolthol I just wanted to warn you that I have no idea when I will be able to make my next counter, could be this month or in february

oh boy, fight

@Cheth No problem

@Cheth Did you forget about this?

Azronger wrote:@Cheth Did you forget about this?

No, my issue is that most of the time I have to write is spent on Applying to college and stuff. Sorry @Xolthol for keeping you waiting, I feel bad at least once a day about it lmfao

If I'm taking too long for you just say so and I'll concede, but i'm hoping to get a post out in february.

Fair. Was just asking for clarification.

@Cheth No problem I can wait. I'm not always the fastest one to respond in a debate

Azronger wrote:@Cheth

Currently writing, but difficult since my computer still isn't working

Might get my computer back on monday, which means I can finally write consistently again

Computer did not come yet, but since this is getting ridicolous I'll limit myself to one week and if I haven't responded by then I concede.